Right of Way: Embracing Ireland’s Outdoors
| Author | Date | Message |
|---|---|---|
| Brian Kitson | Jul 23 2023, 10:22am | Last year, the government produced an excellent outdoor recreation strategy called “Embracing Ireland’s Outdoors”. The strategy builds on the €1.6bn already invested in promoting the great outdoors and intends to “lead, guide and facilitate the sustainable development and management of outdoor recreation and increased participation” over the coming years. Thankfully, Access is one of the six pillars of this strategy. In this country, too often we must rely on the goodwill of landowners to access to our most beautiful mountains, trails, rivers and beaches. Few of us can be under any illusions that this can be taken for granted. Fintan O’Toole wrote an insightful piece in the Irish Times this week about the lack of detail in the strategy relating to our right of way. He refers to the progressive approach UK governments take to ensure access rights and how the respective law in this country is much weaker and poorly enforced. O’Toole states: “Since 2010, planning legislation obliges local authorities [in Ireland] to include in their statutory development plans information, including maps, on the existing rights of way in their areas. In June 2021, the Office of the Planning Regulator published the results of its study of these development plans. It found that only 11 of the 35 plans fully complied with the law, while 10 of them had no lists or maps of rights of way whatsoever. When the regulator contacted these local authorities asking why they were not implementing the law, the answers included “opposition from landowners” and “concerns from elected members representing local land holding interests.” This is the nub of the problem. High-level aspirations to ensuring that Irish people can enjoy the beauty of their own country come up against the assertion of property rights as the primary Irish value that trumps all other rights.” (End) This is clearly an issue of particular importance to IMRA and our members as we rely on the goodwill and permission from various individuals and organisations to run our events. Therefore, at the very least, it would be worthwhile for as many individual members as possible to seek the development plan from their respective local authority to ensure it sets out rights of way as it is supposed to and demand answers if it does not comply with the law. But the point of this post is to open the discussion about whether there is more we can do as an organisation to support government efforts “protect and improve access to the outdoors”? If members think it would be a good idea for IMRA to take a more active role in this regard then it would be good to capture suggestions on how we might go about this in ways compatible with the voluntary nature of our organisational structure. Feasible ideas could be captured here and brought forward at our next agm. Here’s a link to download the strategy: https://www.gov.ie/en/policy-information/43eee-embracing-irelands-outdoors-national-outdoor-recreation-strategy-2023-2027 IT members can read Fintan’s article by following the link below: https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2023/07/22/fintan-otoole-why-is-the-state-investing-billions-in-projects-that-depend-on-goodwill-of-property-owners/ |
| Conor Murphy | Jul 23 2023, 12:12pm | An excellent post and point. Access issues are a threat to the future of the sport. As part of my day job, I sometimes meet property owners concerned about individuals and groups accessing their lands. Their see the high profile commercial events bringing thousands across routes, some hauling in €100,000/€200,000+ and, very understandably, that colours their view. And I have to tell them that the Occupier's Liability Act exposes them to a potential liability. Even successfully defending a claim - and they are not easy claims, as the "Wicklow Walker" case showed - can involve significant costs. I have expressed my concern about IMRA and commercial ventures elsewhere. I won't open up that one again here. I don't know what IMRA officer deals with access, or what policies they have, what representations they have made to politicians or landowners groups, what submissions they have made about the legislation etc. Mountaineering Ireland are very proactive, clear and coherent on the matter. If you look at their mission statement, their strategic objectives, advocacy for members interests and protecting access are core aims. They constantly produce submissions, engage with landowners, lobby TDs, issue press releases. This is very basic for an organisation tasked with promoting a sport. I hope and trust IMRA do similar and are just not as good as MI at advertising it. |
| Turlough Conway | Jul 23 2023, 2:14pm | The Lisadell case was a disaster and not just for Sligo CoCo. As a results, I would imagine that CoCos are scared to publish any ROW that might be in any way disputed as a result. That just means I disagree with O'Toole's assertions that the underlying issue is a 'Value'. Also, thats the Coco's problem, they must comply with the new law even if difficult. The method Brian outlined to start to addressing the problem is correct: "Therefore, at the very least, it would be worthwhile for as many individual members as possible to seek the development plan from their respective local authority to ensure it sets out rights of way as it is supposed to and demand answers if it does not comply with the law." Written questions, written answers and maybe feedback to here. |
| Conor Murphy | Jul 23 2023, 3:41pm | I think the access issue for runners is broader than the rights of way set out in County Development plans though. Here in Kerry, most of those public rights are very short stretches of roads, usually a few hundred metres long, for the public to access beaches. In Munster we've had access issues on long trails that are outside the local authority public rights of way lists. We have been told not to publicise runs on the Beara Way, the Sli Gaeltacht Mhuscrai and Sheep's Head Way, we've seen the traditional Carrauntoohil Irish Championship lost. An analysis of the issue should consider aspects like right to roam laws, and insurance for IMRA members to at least reduce the concerns of landowners. I believe climbers and walkers are covered by insurance if they are members of Mountaineering Ireland etc. |
| Eoin Keith | Jul 24 2023, 6:03pm | Conor, I don't know whether you realise it or not, but IMRA is an entirely volunteer run organisation. IMRA has no officer responsible for Access and conservation issues since IMRA has no officers full stop. Mountaineering Ireland receives enough funding from the state to enable it to employ 12 people in their office (IMRA has no office, and receives no state funding for an office, or any staff, either full time or part time). One of those people is employed full time to work on Access and Conservation (and has been in that role for many years). It should be no surprise that Mountaineering Ireland are far more active in their endeavours on this front than an entirely voluntary organisation such as IMRA. IMRA is not secretly hiding any full time employed staff working on access and conservation issues and hiding the output of this non-existent secret officer. I believe you are an officer for the Munster trail runners group. Can I ask what you have been doing as an officer of this group in terms of Access issues? Can you point us in the direction of your mission statement and strategic objectives? You clearly bring some work related expertise to the matter so presumably you have been producing submissions, engaging with landowners, and issuing press releases using these skills, |
| Conor Murphy | Jul 24 2023, 7:21pm | Eoin I'm amused by the fundamental contradiction in your position. In one paragraph you say Mountaineering Ireland has the funding and staff to address issues, whereas IMRA has neither. And in the next paragraph you ask what our group, which is not a national organisation tasked with promoting a sport, and doesn't have membership, sponsors or race income, has done about access! I guess the question that arises about MI is, if they can do things properly, why can't IMRA? Why can't IMRA access state funding? Why are there no proper corporate sponsors that might enable IMRA employ someone? As for our group, even though we do not have a committee or income, we addressed the access issues that arose when we were told there could be no running on the Beara and Sheep's Head trails, and the Sli Gaeltacht Mhuscrai. 2 from our group met with the representative for those trails and got the insurance company to confirm that they would cover runners, to alleviate some concerns of landowners. I also met with the local TD - who has run with us - and discussed access issues with her, she now leads a national party. I know in some other thread recently you suggested that promoting the sport would burn up money. You now say MI has all these employees to address oaaues and IMRA doesn't. I think IMRA should either drop the excuse that it doesn't have to do very basic stuff because it has no money, or else go out and get it. |
| Brian Kitson | Jul 24 2023, 7:22pm | Just in case we inadvertently go off on a tangent, the purpose of the original post was to suggest that members liaise with their local authority to ensure existing rights of way are captured on their local development plan and to explore if there is anything more IMRA could do to improve Access. All ideas are welcome with the understanding that any initiatives brought forward would first have to be assessed in terms of their effort to return value and our ability as an organisation to deliver them given the modest voluntary resources available to us. I appreciate that the answer right now may well be, ‘no’. That is fine and we can move on. Apart from that, really, the only other topic that could be discussed here is how I might get my hands on a burger token for the BBQ on Wednesday night. Thank you. |
| Conor Murphy | Jul 24 2023, 7:23pm | oaaues - issues! |
| Eoin Keith | Jul 24 2023, 7:37pm | Brian, IMHO your approach here was perfect, just in case my reply could be inadvertently perceived as implying anything else. It's great that you've not only identified this issue as something of interest to IMRA as an organisation, but also pro-actively taken action, and outlined how everyone could possibly contribute if they are so inclined. It's definitely something that would make for a good discussion at the AGM. Exactly as you say, feasible ideas that will be workable with the voluntary nature of our organisational structure are undoubtedly worth exploring. |
| Peter O'Farrell | Jul 24 2023, 7:37pm | @Conor Murphy "2 from our group met with the representative for those trails and got the insurance company to confirm that they would cover runners, to alleviate some concerns of landowners" Can I ask whose insurance company you are referring to in this case? Is it the insurance provider for the waymarked trails or an insurance company that you have engaged for your running group? Either way, if this is a feasible approach to alleviate landowners liability it sounds like a runner. Excuse the pun. @Brian Kitson It's a long term solution but (possibly multi-generational) efforts could be made towards completely re-shaping either the primacy of land ownership in this state or the more chilling effects of litigation . I'm just back from a holiday in Wales where agreed access bridle ways criss cross the land in all directions, and in a place where everything has an owner. |
| Conor Murphy | Jul 24 2023, 7:50pm | Peter It was the insurers for the trails. Afair they specifically provided cover for walkers, so that was the only activity allowed. But 2 in the group followed it up after meeting the trails group rep, and had the insurer confirm that they would also cover runners. I am not suggesting that's some silver bullet to solve all access issues everywhere. Insurance is just one concern landowners have and most routes won't even have the waymarked trails cover to start with. I was really just addressing Eoin's "and what have ye done" query. |
| Eoin Keith | Jul 24 2023, 7:56pm | Conor, I'm amused by your fundamental misunderstanding of the voluntary nature of IMRA. I'm amused that you think "somebody" in IMRA should be required to access state funding to enable us to carry out your desires, but at the same time you're not willing to put in the work as an officer for Munster trail runners to access state funding to carry out your desires. Now there's an interesting contradiction. I guess the question that arises is if MI can do things properly, why can't Munster Trail Runners? Why can't Munster Trail Runners access state funding? Why are there no proper corporate sponsors that might enable Munster Trail Runners employ someone? IMRA address access issues as they arise, and ensures that all our races have the necessary permits and permissions from the relevant landowners. I know that in every thread you've contributed recently you suggested that "someone else" is not doing things correctly but you think that "someone else" should fix the problem, You're showing a fundamental lack of knowledge of the nature of IMRA. If you think there is a problem, and you think there is a way to fix it then you are more than welcome to volunteer your time and effort to implement the fix. It would be great if you could raise the funds for us to employ a full time access officers, so please, to use your own words, go out and get it. |
| Conor Murphy | Jul 24 2023, 9:02pm | Eoin. Tbh you don't sound amused. IMO you sound irritated, but I appreciate that's subjective, you're entitled to disagree. You've made a lot of points that are confused. In the paragraph that starts with "I guess the question that arises is if MI can do things properly, why can't Munster Trail Runners?" you proceed to list things you think we should do...but IMRA don't do! You seem to be asserting that IMRA don't have to do anything because you perceive that the Munster Trail Runners don't, even though I have cited an example where we ensured trails remained open. We can't access state funding because, unlike IMRA, we're not a national organisation tasked with promoting a sport. We are a platform for people to share plans and photos. If you actually think we and IMRA are the same that's a little concerning. I did enjoy the suggestion that I should go out and get funds for IMRA. Will it get as much gratitude as you've shown for the 2 in our group who went out and stopped 3 large trails in the SW being closed! ;-) |
| Stuart Scott | Jul 24 2023, 9:06pm | Thanks for highlighting that Brian, very interesting and relevant. Unfortunately I don't know what the solution is either. I'd love a right to roam but I think Ireland's land ownership structure is so different to Scotland's that it's just not practical. Similarly agreed access routes aren't really feasible until the litigation issue is solved. Insurance isn't the solution - even if a claim is successfully defended the insurer will have lost so much in legal fees that the landowner will be impacted regardless. The alternative is a State guarantee but can the taxpayer afford the floodgates to be opened? Another related issue is the impact increased mountain activity has on the environment, and the subsequent withdrawal of permits. IMRA has a long history and a good relationship with NPWS and Coillte but there is increased competition from walking groups and other parties for access to popular areas and parking facilities. We can't expect to be granted access just "because we were there first". I fully agree with NPWS' objectives but it's going to have an increasing impact on us as the years go on, especially for larger races. It's hard to know what the solution is here, too. |
| Conor Murphy | Jul 24 2023, 9:19pm | Stuart I agree about the right to roam, it's probably aiming so high that farmers groups would just bat it away. And you are right about the whole litigation/insurance issue. The number of cases that succeed is actually very small, but the perception of landowners is that they are easy to maintain, and fact that they can be brought at all is the issue. And I agree about the environmental impact. IMRA's policy of capping numbers is great...but landowners see the high profile commercial races and this can alarm them. |
| Brian Furey | Jul 24 2023, 9:59pm | What about holding once yearly or every few years "future of Imra" type conference for everyone to have their say on these matters and others. Agm isn't long enough to cover these. Just a suggestion |
| Conor Murphy | Jul 25 2023, 9:38pm | think Brian's suggestion about a seminar is an excellent suggestion, a really positive proposal. I have seen issues here brushed off with a "raise a Motion at the AGM". But as we all know Motions generally are very narrow, focussing on acceptance or rejection of a specific proposal and wording. I think a seminar would be a great way of IMRA engaging with members outside the time and format constraints of the AGM, and having much broader discussions and analyses. |
| Miriam Maher | Jul 26 2023, 9:15am | Morning All Important topic to have raised @Brian, thanks. As per your original post, considering this further and then bringing it to the AGM is the starting point. It’s only possible to have an effective discussion about what could be done within IMRA and by the IMRA membership in-person. All other avenues of promoting change can come from that. Looking forward to hearing from anyone on this thread at the AGM in November! Online discussions can only go so far. Miriam |
| Eoin Keith | Jul 26 2023, 3:00pm | Oh Conor, You shouldn't doubt that you amuse me! I wouldn't be bothered typing here otherwise. I have no other reason to reply to you other than personal entertainment. You are a classic (virtual) Barstool expert. (Maybe you're a real world one too, but I wouldn't know). It often seems every pub in Ireland has it's barstool expert telling all and sundry what everyone else is doing wrong in the world, and what someone else needs to do to fix it. They would melt away rather quickly if the merest hint arose that they might be able to do something themselves to fix the world, or do some actual work to help make it happen. That perfectly encapsulates your approach in this thread, and indeed every other thread you have contributed to in the last few weeks. When is pointed out that its open to you to effect change in IMRA by putting forward appropriate motions at our AGM , you of course run a mile. In fact in another thread you assure us that there's no way you could be bothered do that. Actually doing something is so much harder than keeping yourself comfortably plonked on your barstool! IMRA is lucky to have so many people who actively volunteer to get things done, rather than sitting on their virtual barstools telling everyone else they're doing things wrong and how it should be done. Many people have changed things with their pro-active approach. They are greatly appreciated. People who pontificate from the sidelines tend to get a lot less achieved for some reason. I've also noticed that their opinions seem to carry less weight with the people who actually get things done, funnily enough. IMRA is a Volunteer organisation. It is expected that if you think something can be changed that will take some effort to change, then you should be willing to help with the work involved, and not expect "others" to it for you. That's a fundamental spirit and reality of the organisation. Your approach seems to be the exact opposite of this. My replies are calling you out on this, but they appear to have been too subtle, and you're just not "getting it" at all, even when I copy and paste your own words back to you (And you shriek in horror at the suggestion that you should be expected to do what you expect others to do). You expect IMRA, a volunteer organisation with no staff, to produce a similar level of output to an organisation funded with 12 staff members, one of which is fully funded to spend all of their working time working on the issue. Either you have no idea of the nature of both organisation, or your level of understanding of the reality of how the wold works is massively lacking, Huge amounts of change have been enacted at IMRA AGMs. Our most recent one was a good example of it. As it happens the main changes approved were in the area of encouraging more people to volunteer, and the main reason I've taken so ling to reply to your post is that I've been using my time constructively to help implement some of the requested changes debated and approved at the AGM. So maybe Conor, you could take the big step down from the comfort of your virtual barstool and actually volunteer some of your time, expertise and political influence to be usefully helpful in actually getting things done. Because at the moment the main politician that comes to mind when I see your approach to IMRA is a man who likes to sit on his barstools in Drumcondra, describing one of his rival politicians as a Waffler, nothing but a Waffler. There's definitely no waffle shortage in your posts. There is an action shortage though, it would seem. No doubt you'll tell me I'm wrong, and that someone else should do something about it. A big thanks to everyone else in this thread, and indeed all the other threads, for their constructive positive engagement and action. It's always appreciated. |
| Conor Murphy | Jul 26 2023, 7:54pm | Eoin – the content and tone of your post are awful. Anyone can have a go at my posts, robust debate is healthy. But a long personal attack from someone who doesn’t know me is a very ugly use of this forum. I can see why another member complained of bullying. Anyway, I’m not going to respond in kind, your comments (including the weird Bertie Ahern stuff) are noted and refuted. Miriam – what do you think about Brian Furey’s suggestion of a seminar? To address everything with a “raise it at the AGM” is a bit...unusual. Because of course in other organisations issues are usually discussed by members first, before Motions are prepared and put to a vote. A seminar on a range of issues would be a great way of getting more feedback before Motions are drafted. Another problem with the whole AGM first idea is that they only come around once a year (obvs!) so they are a very slow and cumbersome way of addressing issues that could be considered long beforehand. Furthermore, they may be dominated by certain groups, would you really get many runners based in the south west or north west travelling to them? And finally, change arising from the AGM can be very slow to implement. |
| John O Connor | Jul 27 2023, 8:49am | What IMRA provide is top class. Safety in all runs is paramount, never any issues with land access as its been green lighted before any race. Why does IMRA have to keep answering questions about why don't you this why don't you do that, IMRA principles are what any organisation should be when it comes to running, no frills no fireworks going off at the start line like alot of these big races. I done the Arc of Attrition this year, blue smoke at the start line cameras everywhere, done the Slieve Bloom through IMRA this year, I was better looked after in the IMRA race than I was paying £240 for the Arc. So my point is IMRA is doing a fantastic job and keep it up. Thanks |
| Laura Flynn | Jul 27 2023, 1:47pm | Thanks Brian for highlighting this positive government initiative. I’ve just spent the past week in Donegal and came across barbed wire on a previously open path to a beautiful beach. Very disappointing. Your post has prompted me to email Donegal Co. Council and ask for their development plan and information on existing Rights of Way as you’ve suggested. If even a portion of our 3,000 plus members did similar ( and followed up) it would be useful. Keep Ireland Open is already doing work in this space as is Mountaineering Ireland, as Conor has pointed out. I suspect a number of our members are already members of these organisations anyway and contributing to the campaign and debate in that way. Thankfully IMRA has developed and sustained great relationships with NPWS, Coillte and numerous land owners over many years and generally have managed to avoid conflict or confrontation. I don’t want to be harping on about the hard work done on the ground by the current and previous committees to get where we are today - most of you already know and appreciate this. It’s unfortunate that some posters here seem to want to knock them for not doing enough. That may not be what’s intended and, if so, at the very least, the choice of language in some of these posts is ill-judged and insensitive, in my opinion, though it’s hard to read some of the comments as nothing other than critical. As Eoin said, it’s easy to be the hurler on the ditch. I’d suggest for the moment and as an immediate action, as many of our members do as Brian and Turlough have suggested and that any proposal involving the creation of a separate committee role or other function be brought to the AGM in November. For what it’s worth, it would be my view that if IMRA ever decides to employee anyone it would be someone who could take over the very hefty administrative/IT duties carried out by the executive committee on a voluntary basis while also holding down full-time jobs or running their own businesses. |
| Turlough Conway | Jul 27 2023, 2:42pm | To find development plan do this for your council: site:CouncilWebsiteAddress PROW eg site:www.fingal.ie "prow" "development plan" site:www.wicklow.ie "prow" "development plan" Dublin City: ( https://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/2022-12/Final%201-10%20Green%20Infrast%20and%20Recreation.pdf ) Page 340 is PROW map. Page 339: "Public Rights of Way: To identify further significant public rights of way during the lifetime of the development plan and to update the ‘Public Rights of Way’ map." ie Dublin City Council intend to be legally complaint by 2028 (hmm). |
| Turlough Conway | Jul 27 2023, 2:44pm | o find development plan do this for your council: site:CouncilWebsiteAddress "prow" "development plan" eg site:www.fingal.ie "prow" "development plan" site:www.wicklow.ie "prow" "development plan" For Dublin: Page 340 is PROW map. Page 339: "Public Rights of Way: To identify further significant public rights of way during the lifetime of the development plan and to update the ‘Public Rights of Way’ map." ie Dublin City Council intend to be legally complaint by 2028 (hmm). I will email them and follow up here |
| Miriam Maher | Jul 27 2023, 3:41pm | Thanks @turlough, that’s very helpful information. @conor, although it’s apparent you don’t agree with the approach of rising motions around significant change at the AGM, nonetheless that is the route to take in the first instance. I have yet to be convinced that effective and nuanced discussion can take place online over the level of discussions that can take in person. Between now and November all IMRA members are free to research, gather information, develop a proposal and submit a motion around same. In the meantime, the committee, the various RDs for all the races across the country, the regional league coordinators and the many other volunteers involved will all continue to deliver on the impressive calendar of races we put on each year. I’m on my holidays right now, but when I’m back I’ll drop you a line, so we can discuss this further. This thread was started by Brian Kitson and it would be good to keep the focus on what he’s raised. |
| David Power | Jul 28 2023, 1:15pm | Wow, these discussions are hard to read, with all the emotion and bitterness that tinges some posts. However the original goal - access to our mountains is important, so I'd like to share a few points: 1. IMRA's constitution does refer to access as a core objective: "IMRA will endeavour to ensure rights of access to Irish mountains." So it is worthwhile asking ourselves how are we doing against that objective and what more could be done? 2. Whether you're a volunteer led organisation or a professionally staffed organisation, the questions remain the same, it's just a matter of resources, priorities and direction. We should look to learn from other organisations who may have experience/knowledge in this area, whether they be NGBs like AAI or MI or sports clubs or organisations that promote access to our countryside (e.g. hillwalking clubs, community based mountain partnership groups, running clubs, etc) 3. Appointing a sub-committee to look at proposals to maintain & improve access is one approach. It gives a dedicated focus to a group of members to evaluate how we can achieve the objective. They could report back with motions/recommendations to membership at the AGM. 4. I would also suggest IMRA considers a longer term plan - a strategic plan or a development plan. Many organisations have them, voluntary or professional. All NGBs have them and while I realise IMRA is not an NGB, it can look at Sports Ireland or Athletics Ireland for an approach. I speak from experience, having developed a 5 year development plan for a triathlon club I am a member of. That takes time and focus, separate to the day to day of managing races, but looking at how IMRA can achieve it's longer term objectives. Whether that's improving access, growing participation, growing regionally, high performance, etc, etc. 5. During COVID, we all discovered lots of tracks and trails in our 2-5km local area. I became involved in a group making submissions to DLRCC for their 5 year development plan. It was fascinating to discover rights of way (ROW) are marked for DLR area, however some are impeded or unaccessible and the council did respond to our submissions stating it was often due to landowner concerns or challenges. Examples would be Dingle Glen in Ballycorus or Kiltiernan to Glencullen via Comer's land with gallops. I do believe if we don't make representations (as individuals or organisationally) to influence the future of our country, we may lose some of the things we take for granted today. I would be happy to participate in shaping these views further into a focused longer term plan. Resources: ROW info: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/owning-a-home/home-owners/right-of-way/ DLR ROW list: https://www.dlrcoco.ie/sites/default/files/atoms/files/appendix8.pdf Wicklow ROW list: https://www.wicklow.ie/Portals/0/adam/Documents/vCBUkjzlq0KMmpK-iw26UA/Link/Chapter%2018%20-%20Green%20Infrastructure.pdf |
| Conor Murphy | Jul 28 2023, 5:03pm | David - a really great post, you could not have put points 1-5 any better. IMRA has 2 objectives, the 2nd is to preserve access. Work on the issue can start now, a sub committee is the ideal way to proceed, presenting even broad findings at an AGM would be better than starting then. And your point about growing participation, growing regionally, making representations, influencing decisions, it should be put out as a rallying call to all members. |
