Nephin
| Author | Date | Message |
|---|---|---|
| Karina Jonina | Jun 27 2023, 9:33am | Hi guys, The entry for Nephin is open today :) Early starts at 11.30 so registration will be open at 11. Main start at 12.00 :) More details in the event page :) If you are about, please volunteer for the race :) See you all there and happy running :) |
| David Dinsmore | Jul 2 2023, 12:14pm | Why is the race being run on the old unmarked route when there’s a new marked trail available? |
| Mick Hanney | Jul 2 2023, 1:19pm | I guess historically its always been on current route. I wasn't aware of the new trail. Perhaps an option for another year. |
| David Dinsmore | Jul 2 2023, 3:36pm | It’s been there for a few years! Big green sign. Hard to miss First section is straightforward on forestry paths then on to the mountain proper. Well marked and possibly a bit easier than the current route. Certainly easier to access |
| Anne-Marie Flaherty | Jul 2 2023, 4:15pm | That's a great idea, David. Why not propose it as a route option for the North West League for next year? Two more races this year too, we'd love to see you at them, all on fully marked trails. The appeal of the Championship races is that, for the most part they're not on marked trails and take in more open mountain and can involve rougher terrain and at times navigation. We've never had any access issues with the current route, and have had great co-operation from the landowners who very kindly give us access each year for his race. There are loads of fully marked and easier to access race options available if this is something that has put you off participating in the Nephin race, but there's no reason why the marked trail you've suggested cannot be used as part of another competition. |
| Brian Mullins | Jul 2 2023, 4:58pm | Thanks to Karina and all the volunteers today for a great race. A few heavy squals didn’t dampen the spirits and once again Nephin could be seen and navigation was a non issue. Just couldn’t catch Andy at the end but what a race which included a full cartwheel on the descent! |
| Kevin O'Riordan | Jul 2 2023, 5:54pm | "Why is the race being run on the old unmarked route when there’s a new marked trail available?" Cuz we love it. |
| Vivian O'Gorman | Jul 2 2023, 8:20pm | A big thank you to Karina for organising todays great race. Her first time as RD and sure it was no problem! Thank you also to all the volunteers. By the way I agree with both Anne Marie and Kevin above. This is one of the best races we have. Unmarked open mountain, navigation at times!, no worries from the landowner. It's a great race!!! |
| Paul Smyth | Jul 2 2023, 9:50pm | One of the best races in the calendar and one of the few remaining open mountain races. As a championship race the route is entirely appropriate. We already have many races that are either trail races, or which feature large amounts of trail, fire-road, or good walkers paths. We don't need any more of those. Quite the opposite in fact. Did you enjoy the race today? |
| David Dinsmore | Jul 2 2023, 10:18pm | If it’s that good why such a low turnout? |
| Alan Ayling | Jul 2 2023, 10:40pm | Connacht Champs races, especially 2n day which isn't part of Irish Champs, has for years had relatively low turnout. Perhaps it's the remote location, or maybe the sheer severity of the route... those things don't have mass appeal, but are really appreciated by some runners. One way or another, turnout is a pretty poor metric for the quality or success of a race. |
| Jonathan McCloy | Jul 2 2023, 10:50pm | Fantastic race well worth the journey. It's not a course for the masses but was an idealic mountain race for me. Thanks to all the organisers and volunteers. |
| Paul Smyth | Jul 2 2023, 11:00pm | Well said Alan: "One way or another, turnout is a pretty poor metric for the quality or success of a race." I gather you didn't like the race David. If you don't mind me asking, was this your first mountain race? |
| David Dinsmore | Jul 3 2023, 6:56am | I’d ask again, if it’s such a good race which epitomises the qualities IMRA espouses, why don’t more people enter? It’s not that remote! I didn’t run the race as it didn’t fit into my plans at the moment but as I live locally I came to watch. As for mountain running, I suspect I was doing it before many of you were born. I’m 67. First person to run the Moyle Way on it’s opening day in 1978 and set record with Jim Hayes the following year |
| Paul Smyth | Jul 3 2023, 9:24am | Sounds like you'll fit right in. The North West League races should be pretty accessible from where you're based. Best of luck with your first IMRA race! |
| David Sands | Jul 3 2023, 9:28am | I think what David is trying to say is that a lot of work went in to securing the way marked route up Nephin complete with signage and parking facilities. I get the point that Nephin provides the opportunity for open mountain running however the track that follows the marked route through the plantation is only the first 2km following a fire trail for the first km then a rough track then bog to a stile for the next km which is where the open mountain begins, there are no barbed wire fences to climb over. The route could be amended slightly to include this route up through the plantation as it meets up with the original route very shortly after the stile. The descent down the mountain could remain the same as the original race route. I would guess that this small change would encourage more people to enter as well as supporting the work done by proud locals wanting to promote their area and possibly assisting in future improvemts such as toilets, drinking water tap, signage etc.....BTW, I would consider myself an experienced mountain runner and whilst I love nothing more than a good open mountain run I also want to promote the sport and increase participation levels for all. |
| Paul Smyth | Jul 3 2023, 10:00am | I get that you guys want to promote the walking track and hopefully improve the facilities, but I've been a member of IMRA for a very long time (since 1987) and making the change you suggest will have little (probably no) effect on the numbers at this race. |
| Anne-Marie Flaherty | Jul 3 2023, 10:02am | David and David, I appreciate that your comments are well meant and I am only too aware of the work that goes into establishing and designing and promoting trails, however it feels like you're both deliberately ignoring the points made by those who have replied. David D. had an opportunity, while at Nephin yesterday, to participate as a volunteer even if the run itself wasn't part of his current plans,it would have given him insight into a). the work that IMRA volunteers do to put on these events and b) he could have engaged with those participating with his suggestion for the route proposal. Looking at both of your participation histories with IMRA it feels like perhaps you don't fully understand the ethos of volunteering and contributing to the organisation and participating in the runs themselves. A solution has been suggested for the inclusion of this new route on Nephin in the Northwest League and we'd love to see such experienced mountain runners at these events in the future whether as runners or volunteers if running doesn't fit into current training plans. |
| Andrew Tees | Jul 3 2023, 10:23am | Thanks to Karina and the whole volunteer team for yesterday. What a race... a tough course, great views and some wild weather, all packed into 5.5km... pushed all the way down by Brian for a sprint to the line, a fitting finish to an epic CC weekend! I would agree with others here that the current route is excellent, the free route choice, lack of established paths and steepness of the course are things that will appeal to certain runners and will deter others. Surely the important thing is that those who currently turn up to organise and run the race are enjoying it... changing it to please anyone else would seem like madness. |
| David Sands | Jul 3 2023, 10:49am | Umph Anne-Marie, a low punch that I didn't see coming. I did have discussions with an IMRA member prior to the Nephin run and fully intended to participate in the race but things change and I ended up in Tullamore at the National Children's Games with my coaching hat on. I am getting on in age now and my sporting path is more Triathlon related as I find mountain running severe on the body although I am on a break year having qualified for the 2024 World Triathlon Championships in Kona, Hawaii (LOL) but I am sure there has been occasions in the past where I could have volunteered for the Nephin run but I could go on about how it clashed with this or I was too busy for that but the truth is it wasn't on my agenda and I have other commitments that take priority. I did my first and only IMRA race in 2001 on Croagh Patrick as you are you aware from your comments that you have made. There were several times when I penciled in the IMRA Nephin but like I said it just didn't fit in around my training schedule and besides it is not run every year either. Regarding participation numbers, are you aware of the Nephin Up and Over Challenge that was run for 3 years between 2017 and 2019? it was a 3k Road Run, Up Nephin (using the marked route) finishing off with a 5k road run, starting from Lahardaun village. It got significantly more numbers than the IMRA race at the weekend and possibly anytime previously so I don't agree with the argument that if a change was made over to the marked route up Nephin that numbers would not increase, as I said it is only a minor change. Can you not see the irony in that you refuse to use the marked route but happy to make use of the facilities created by it, and if IMRA supported the marked route as well as other groups then more facilities may follow. |
| Lillian Deegan | Jul 3 2023, 11:21am | Hello David, Lillian here, IMRA Races Coordinator. Rest assured nothing has been refused route wise as per your mention. We opt to use a race route that we know works for us to run our Connacht Championship weekend. As has been said in the above thread, you have the option to put a proposal forward to have this area included/ considered as part of the North West League for ‘24. By doing the same, the end result could lead to opening up the area as you note. I would express a wish not to see the efforts of our RD and helper crew diminished in the way it seems to be going on here. Based on the forum postings from our regular CC runners and x amt. of new comers, a great outing was had. Let’s not spoil the goodwill of our volunteer team please. I will be getting a forum post up shortly on the 2024 calendar - you might follow up there with your suggestions. Best, Lillian |
| David Sands | Jul 3 2023, 11:38am | Thanks Lillian, the very best of luck for the rest of the mountain running season to IMRA and all the hard working team involved. |
| David Dinsmore | Jul 3 2023, 11:45am | I don’t see how David or I said anything to criticise or detract from the volunteers, who did an excellent job on the day. I didn’t volunteer because I’ve only just joined IMRA. I did actually ask one of the two women organisers about the route and said it was just the one IMRA always used. I’d back up what David Sands said about the Up and Over, which attracted many first time mountain runners. On a more positive note, Anyone interested in a tough challenge check out www.Canigo-championnat.fr It’s a 34km run up Canigou with 2180m climb. There are also a couple of shorter events on the same day. Contact me if you’re interested. I can provide free accommodation for up to 4-5 people. Nearest airports are Carcassonne, Girona and Perpignan Lots of other great trail and mountain races in that part of France throughout the year too. I can let you know more if interested. I’ve done all of my recent trail/mountain running in France |
| David Dinsmore | Jul 3 2023, 11:54am | That should be https://www.championnat-du-canigo.fr New course this year 41km. August 6 |
| Rachel Cinnsealach | Jul 3 2023, 11:58am | I have heard people say “Nephin” is the best race on the calendar, (read all the race reports on Nephin). It is their favourite race and I have also listened to people for years talking about the Connaught Champs weekend being the best weekend of the year on the IMRA calendar. This is of course personal choice, but I would agree with these statements. Nephin being one of my favourite races. I have been an IMRA runner for years and generally come at the back of the field. I enjoy the trail races, but I am generally far more elated after open mountain races. The races which involve a sense of adventure are much more satisfying to me. Tens of Thousands do road marathons every year, that does not mean we should abolish mountain running and organise more road races. Hundreds of members do the Wednesday night Leinster league and other such leagues but this does not mean we should abolish open mountain races in favour of more trail races. The experience gained from the open mountain races is one which is not comparable to the bigger races. The comradery, the mini battles within the small field, the discussions on route choice after the race. These are really special races. There are so many other races on the IMRA calendar for those who do not like the rough terrain. |
| David Sands | Jul 3 2023, 12:17pm | Next time you're in the area Rachel I'd be more than happy to run up the official marked route with you so that you can make an informed decision on which you prefer. I am of course presuming that you have not been up that route already, I apologise if I've presumed incorrect. There are numerous ascents of Nephin of which I've done most and we all have our favourites but my initial point was aimed at improving the sport of mountain running through a wider audience and I believe that if the official marked route was used for races then this would go some way towards that. I'm looking forward to putting a case forward for it to be included in the 2024 NW League. |
| Rachel Cinnsealach | Jul 3 2023, 12:39pm | @David Sands. Yes absolutely put on more races and encourage more people into mountain/trail running if you can get the volunteers to help out but also have the open mountain races which include navigation and rough terrain. I love the rough ground and unmarked routes. IMRA already have so many marked routes on the calander. |
| David Sands | Jul 3 2023, 12:46pm | Good for you Rachel. Keep her lit. |
| John Shiels | Jul 3 2023, 1:33pm | I think the bar-b-cue and late night festivities after Mweelrea might also have something to do with the low turn out :) |
| Paul Flynn | Jul 3 2023, 2:59pm | Having just read the whole of this thread, i think there’s a simple misunderstanding happening here. Neither of the Davids meant any offence and were simply offering what they saw as helpful advice to make the race more accessible and attract greater numbers. What I think they missed, however, is that changing it from an open-mountain race to more of a trail race would alter the nature of it completely, basically making it a different (granted, somewhat similar) sport. It would be the equivalent of suggesting to the organiser of a trail race “the local road 10k got much higher numbers, why don’t you switch your race to being on the road?”. |
| Warren Swords | Jul 3 2023, 3:51pm | This thread reminds me of the old joke. How can you tell if someone has done an ironman? Don't worry, they'll you. |
| Warren Swords | Jul 3 2023, 3:52pm | This thread reminds me of the old joke. How can you tell if someone has done an ironman? Don't worry, they'll tell you. |
| David Sands | Jul 3 2023, 4:06pm | Finally, someone with a sense of humour. |
| Conor Murphy | Jul 3 2023, 6:44pm | I fully agree with Vivian, Paul, Rachel and others who have posted about the joys of the open mountain race. I'm no fan of the big commercial events, but they hammer our national organisation when it comes to advertising and promotion. You ask runners in any AC about mountain running, they'll all have heard of Quest and Gaelforce, many will know Ecotrail, the Seven Sisters etc. People will travel across the country and hand over hundreds, and be unaware of far cheaper races on their doorstep. Which is such a shame. IMRA Munster has a PRO and a social media committee, the national organisation doesn't even have a PRO and can't run a Facebook group so it's "unofficial". Sponsors will hand over 6 and 7 figure cheques to groups like Triathlon Ireland because they're good at marketing, Orienteering Ireland employ people to promote their sport, we're light years behind. I'd say more people know the Third Secret of Fatima than know about IMRA. |
| Alan Ayling | Jul 3 2023, 6:54pm | The inference here being that large numbers = good. Perhaps the people pushing such thinking would like to get involved in arranging suitable parking for these large numbers. And negotiating with NPWS and other landowners for permits. IMRA is doing just fine without heavy social media presence or extensive self promotion. Sometimes small is good. Those with a sense of humour can make what they will of that last bit. |
| Eoin Keith | Jul 3 2023, 6:57pm | Well Conor, IMRA is NOT a commercial organiser. It is volunteer run and organised. We don't need to make a profit. Our races don't require as big a number of entries as possible to prevent loss / increase profit. In fact the opposite is often the case. Many of our races are limited entry, and for most others too many entries can cause an unreasonable burden on our volunteers, We are not competing with commercial races. We don't need to. What exactly do you think we would gain by using up volunteer time to organise all this marketing, along with burning through our members' money to pay for the associated expenses? |
| David Sands | Jul 3 2023, 7:23pm | Wow. That took an unexpected change of direction. |
| Eoin Syron | Jul 3 2023, 7:38pm | As far as I recall there is free route choice, so maybe someone will try the walkers path as a route. It's always interesting to see which is quicker the direct route or the runable route. Mayo for Sam!! Maybe next year for both!!!!! |
| Conor Murphy | Jul 3 2023, 7:42pm | The point of IMRA is to promote the sport of mountain and trail running. It's set out at Article 2 in the Constitution. It's a positive obligation, the Committee does not get to say it will leave it to the large commercial events. And it does not get to say promoting costs time and money so they won't bother with it. If it costs money, then there is a positive obligation to go out and raise that money. As for burning through funds, again Munster has a PRO and a social media committee. Just how much is the national organisation saving by not having these? |
| Stuart Scott | Jul 3 2023, 8:27pm | I think this thread has achieved that already! David is going to help to establish Nephin Trail as part of the very successful Northwest League (which would be great to see, leaving the Championship race as is). And Conor has put himself forward for the position of National PRO at next year's AGM. Now...what about Donegal?! |
| Laura Flynn | Jul 3 2023, 8:49pm | IMRA was indeed established more than 42 years ago with the aim of promoting mountain, hill and trail running in Ireland and thanks to the hard work of many, many individuals throughout that time it’s grown from a couple of hundred members in the early years to 3,000plus in recent years. To say that it’s being “hammered “ by commercial organisations Conor, suggests that we’re in competition with them. We’re not and never have been. There’s room for everyone in the space. Our offering is different and distinct in that it’s low-cost, inclusive and volunteer-run and past committee, have been keen to keep it that way. Our promotion is not aggressive or costly and doesn’t have to be in my view. If you love hill or trail running we’re easily found by a quick search. Our website is excellent and user-friendly and we even have the option of car-pooling if you don’t have transport. We also have an Instagram account which is updated regularly. When people find us, my experience is that they find a welcoming and friendly community of running only too happy to share the love. Growing the sport in the regions has only been possible by having incredible people on the ground there in Munster (such as Robbie and the Blackburns ); the South-East ( Niamh and Paul) and, only this year, the North- West thanks to Turlough, Anne-Marie and others. It’s their passion and that of people like them that will promote this sport, keep it alive and grow it. Looking forward to seeing you all in the hills soon. |
| Mikey Fry | Jul 3 2023, 9:10pm | Here we go again:) |
| David Dinsmore | Jul 3 2023, 9:38pm | What have I started? I mean no offence to anyone. Several people have said it’s their favourite race and embodies the true spirit of open mountain running. If that’s true why don’t more IMRA members turn out for it? Since the trail was opened local businesses have promoted it heavily and visitors have come in numbers. You’ll have seen the signage etc. The local supermarket even offers a free certificate to those who bring in a selfie from the summit. There were no shortage of volunteers for the Up and Over. No one is saying IMRA needs to compete with commercial races although we could perhaps learn something about marketing. Btw, most of them also rely heavily on volunteers too, as do most road races at local and national level. I race a lot in France. Race entry is typically €10-15 for which you get a T-shirt, chip timing, well stewarded routes, great pre and post race refreshments and usually prizes for all age categories. This is achieved by harnessing local sponsorship. For example, one race in a soft fruit growing area was sponsored by local producer. Every runner got a tray of peaches and prizes were fruit products. At my last race we all got a bag of artichokes. I balk at paying €30-50 to enter even minor races here. You can only wear one T-shirt at a time and there are rarely prizes for age categories. I do have a collection of nice Foxford blankets for winning O60 and O65 River Moy half marathon though :-). There’s no reason why two races couldn’t take place on same day, the old route for hard core, the newer for others. Although as David S has pointed out after 2km there’s not much difference. I’m sure local businesses would sponsor and there’s even a local bus company who could shuttle runners from the village to the start to avoid parking issues. David S and I would certainly work to bring local business on board and organise the events |
| Brendan Lawlor | Jul 3 2023, 10:04pm | Two races up Nephin in the one year ? Warren Swords will have something to say about that #saveHowth and let’s all go off on another tangent |
| Jeff Swords | Jul 3 2023, 10:28pm | What your advocating for David is a very sanitised version of mountain running. Afraid of the challenge of finding your own way? No probs, we'll sign post the hell out of it for you and make it as smooth as possible. But what if I don't win, no probs, here's a certificate for your Instagram so you can say you probably reached the top of the nearest summit. Some people like and want that, others baulk at the thought of a bit of tape trying to persuade them take a particular route. A year in IMRA will give you all that, and participate enough in terms of running and volunteering you'll even get a pretty good participants reward. As for commercial pricing, Eco Trail Wicklow recently announced their tiered pricing structure, you'd get a year of IMRA races for the price of their 19k race, more if you wanted a bit of food at the end. |
| Phil behan | Jul 3 2023, 10:40pm | One thing we definitely need to think about before considering turning IMRA into a larger commercial venture is our impact on the locations we race in. I for one think IMRA’s low impact approach is what might just keep us being allowed to race in such beautiful areas. I’m not sure if you’re aware Conor , but before we go off on any large marketing campaigns - many trail or mountain races hang in the balance at the moment due to restrictions being imposed under new biodiversity restrictions. Without naming any in particular, 2 fairly big non IMRA races have both needed to add diversions in on their routes and one may not even be run again next year over Croagh Patrick. I also know another that had to reduced numbers by 50% on last year and change its route. I also do not believe there is any elitism intended by keep it low key, as said above anyone can find it with a simple Google search. As someone who has RD’d on several IMRA events I can say that more people and more production = more impact, = more cars, = more pi*sed off landowners / residents / councils, = more volunteers required, and even more money to enter. There are plenty of commercial events out there for people who like that type of atmosphere so why not have both options for people who don’t like commercial events ? . In my opinion, IMRA is totally fine as it, but of course that’s just me ! |
| Dave Docherty | Jul 3 2023, 10:59pm | I'm with Phil on this. IMRA is perfect the way it is. Low key, grass roots, DIY, non profit, non commercial, leave no trace (tape), runners who want it, will find it. Its truly the punk of the Irish running scene. UP THE PUNKS!! |
| Richard Fox | Jul 3 2023, 11:01pm | What an incredibly robust debate. Democracy at its best. Indeed as Barack Obama said “The strongest democracies flourish from frequent and lively debate, but they endure when people of every background and belief find a way to set aside smaller differences in service of a greater purpose.” I’m in awe of RDs and all who go out of their way to enable the likes of me to take part in, for me, incredible events for the princely sum of €5 a pop. Unreal - thank you all so much. I’m sure we can all set aside smaller differences in service of a greater purpose and I guess there are avenues and stuff where members who have ideas that they think might work better can represent these ideas in a more meaningful way than through the wringer of a public forum - perhaps by direct contact with a committee type of person? #lovehowth (I’m a Howth hugger) - #lovenephin (and now a Nephin hugger too) Love y/all foxy |
| Niall Corrigan | Jul 4 2023, 9:53am | While I and,I assume, most others applaud local efforts to encourage and promote increased use of our fantastic outdoor spaces, the use of an available easier option is not in IMRA’s dna (we use “the Ayling Abyss for pity’s sake). Practically every race in the calendar has adjacent easier options and most of them are sold out. Race routes get changed all the time and maybe future Nephin RD’s might consider a change but that won’t lead to a sudden explosion in numbers. The CC weekend is what it is. I would love to attend one year but it’s always on one of my work weekends. |
| David Sands | Jul 4 2023, 10:21am | I wouldn't consider the official marked route "easier" whilst it does follow a hard fire road for 1km from the start it is rutted and has a steady incline, the next 0.5km is along a much steeper gravel path with the remaining 0.5km navigating a very narrow path through wet peat bog at which point most people would not be running. I have done the IMRA route on numerous occasions and I was always curious why that route was used even before the marked route went in a few years ago because there is a barbed wire fence to negotiate. Can someone who raced at the weekend enlighten me on how you negotiate the fence. I am just curious, that's all, not side swiping the organisers or anyone else, it's just thats one of my reason why the official route may be a better option. I am aware that there is a temporary gate in the fence at the far left corner for moving sheep down from the commonage into the lower pasture from where the IMRA race starts and maybe this is used for the ascent and descent. Can someone explain to me what happens on race day? However, looking at the Strava maps from race day of some of the runners it appears that the gate was not used on the way up and they followed the river which surely would mean climbing over the fence, but the gate looks to have been used by som on the way down. BTW, I live only 2km from Nephin and would happily meet up with anyone running the mountain, I don't care which way we go up, there are several other options, all but one have no path to the top. |
| Conor Murphy | Jul 4 2023, 4:58pm | I'm surprised at some of the responses. The aim of IMRA is to promote mountain and trail running. That's set out in the Constitution. It's not qualified, the committee cannot decide to keep the sport niche. At least 2 who are/were on the committee refer to not competing with commercial events. David above correctly notes that I did not refer to competing with commercial events, but that we could learn from their marketing. Was there a decision by the Committee not to compete with commercial events? I'm not sure that is allowed by the Constitution. A few posters have noted issues with large numbers at races. I fully agree, while I admire the marketing of commercial ventures, I'm concerned about seeing thousands travel long distances to descend on a mountain or trail. But again that is to misread the aim of IMRA as being to promote mountain and trail races. The aim is to promote the sport, not just races. I have posted elsewhere that IMRA has only 2 races in Galway, Mayo and Donegal, in contrast with the 50 or so in South Dublin and Wicklow. By distributing more races around the country and giving people cheaper options on their doorstep it would reduce any harm caused by the profit driven ventures. Furthermore, promoting the sport involves far more than races, how about reaching out to schools, to ACs? There are hundreds of fell running clubs in the UK, do we have 1? Do we have clubs in Universities, I can see orienteering and mountaineering in the UCC clubs list. If their national organisations can do this basic stuff without "burning through money", why can't we? How about weekly non competitive meet ups? Why not regular training in various locations around the country? None of this is particularly radical or expensive, I appreciate we won't be matching Chanel's ad budget! In short, this idea that the organisation should not compete with commercial races and should stay small is contrary to the stated aim of IMRA. And would, frankly, be bizarre for a national organisation. And no one has explained why a provincial organisation has a PRO and social media committee, but the national organisation does not. |
| David Dinsmore | Jul 4 2023, 5:28pm | Good points Conor! Would you like to get in touch with David S and I about how to take this forward? We’re keen on adding another Nephin race to the calendar next year and there are other places in the area which would be perfect for new races too. If you’d like to chat to us please check me out on Facebook or Instagram. Not posting my phone number here -:) |
| Brendan Lawlor | Jul 4 2023, 6:02pm | IMRA , and its members, volunteers and various committees are doing a very fine job of promoting the sport of mountain and trail running throughout Ireland. Conor, your carping and complaining about this issue and continuing calls for a PRO, more social media activity and more advertising of our activities is very disrespectful to a great deal of the hardworking IMRA stalwarts of IMRA ( of which I count myself as one) , committee members, race directors and volunteers. Please let us get back to race matters and bring your proposals for change to the next AGM and let the membership decide on the merits of what you think needs to happen |
| Warren Swords | Jul 4 2023, 6:08pm | This has to be an all-time classic IMRA thread. Lots of responses and the conclusion is two races on Nephin for 2024! After my disasterous Howth campaign, I am respectfully standing aside lest we end up with three Nephin races. Just to add a bit of much-needed perspective here. Over 3,300 runners have registered with IMRA this year. There isn't a single athletics association in Ireland that has put on more races this year than IMRA. I count over 160 races on the calendar this year, a remarkable feat. IMRA is doing a fine job and long may it continue. |
| Paul Flynn | Jul 5 2023, 10:10am | If nobody minds, I would like to tell my experience of IMRA, as a complete newcomer who did his first race just over a year ago, and has been to 15 more since. First of all, to have over 160 races to choose from, throughout the year, in a small country like Ireland, is absolutely incredible. And it’s not like it’s the same routes being reused over and over. Most of the races are distinct routes and all over beautiful terrain. Also, the entry fees are crazy low. I don’t know anywhere else you can run an 80km race for 25 euro. Maybe those of you who have been doing this for a long time are just used to it, but everyone should definitely appreciate what we have got here. Given this, I was expecting the organisation of the races to be quite amateur, but every race that I went to ran like clockwork, from the car-parking to the registration, to the marshalling. Not only that, but the results and statistics available on the website put all the big commercial races to shame. Everything is laid out exactly how you would want it, and the way you can click through from runners to races to previous editions of the same race works just perfectly. As for the question about not promoting the sport enough. I think anyone who is interested in doing races off-road and searching Google, is going to find the IMRA website quite quickly. I know I did. I can definitely understand the reasons that have been given for not wanting the numbers to grow too large. However, there is one thing I have noticed, which is that the average age of competitors is higher than i would have expected. Picking any random race from this year and looking down the results I see many M40, M50, M35, F40, and comparatively few bare M or F. Using the fantastic website to go back in time and do the same thing for races only 10 years ago, the picture is different, with a lot more M and F on the results. So, it does seem that, whatever the reason, IMRA is not attracting younger people today as well as it did in the past. I would imagine that, whatever somebody’s opinion is on large vs small numbers, competing with commercial events, PROs, etc. we would all agree that any sport always needs to have young people coming through. Therefore, I think, if anything extra needs to be done by IMRA, it would be in the area of attracting more young people to the sport. |
| Alan Kennedy | Jul 5 2023, 10:50am | I agree with everything that Paul just said. Having been submersed in the GAA for 10 years I'm loving the family feel in IMRA and just in awe at the number and variety of events that they put on. Agree with the drive for younger runners but can see that it's already happening on Wed nights in the Leinster League and the introduction of the juvenile fun runs has been a great success so far. I only joined at Xmas but I can't see the need to change much at all seeing as these mid-week races are selling out weeks. |
| Deirdre Galvin | Jul 5 2023, 11:01am | I have found nothing less than a warm welcome and exemplary organisation at any IMRA race attended. That this, and more, is offered at such a reasonable price is testament to the unceasing efforts of its wonderful volunteers. Indeed, I think we might all need to walk a mile in said-volunteers' shoes before possibly weighing in on any planning issues. Thank you IMRA. |
| Brian Furey | Jul 5 2023, 1:09pm | Bear in mind that M35/F35 was only recently added( last 3 years or so possibly) as category on imra results. So slightly skews results to show less M/F these days |
| Andrew Hanney | Jul 5 2023, 2:22pm | The lack of younger adults in IMRA races is not just in IMRA, if you take a look at most Athletic clubs and membership profiles, the 18 to 35 age group is usually the lightest. As for this thread. The answer was quite simple: IMRA League race = nice manicured trails.. IMRA Championship = gnarly, unmarked, find your own route and hopefully make it round. This event is a championship race, no change needed. You could double attendance if the BBQ had a cut off at 11pm :) And I'm quite ok if we don't get 200 people at every race, sometimes less is more. |
| David Sands | Jul 5 2023, 3:00pm | All this talk of navigation, Nephin is hardly the north face of the Eiger, the lower slopes require little or o navigation due to its unobstructed views and I would take a guess that the majority of the racers up Nephin last Sunday actually joined (possibly unknowingly) the official marked trail that zig-zags its way up the stony section of the mountain which is about halfway into the ascent, they may have noticed the occasional white post marking the trail and at that stage they may have welcomed it, this was no sheep path but a path carved out by incessant footfall. In a previous life I would have been severely disciplined for taking a path!!!! The descent of the mountain down the east side of the cone is indeed fabulous. I suppose my initial question was why does IMRA use the route they do because there is a whacking great barbed wire fence to climb over at least twice during the race and there is a perfectly good trail only 400m away and looking at the comments regarding the age profile I am left scratching my head in wonder. I totally get the lovely sense of freedom running through open ground as oppose to a trail. I'd like to hear the experiences from those who actually raced Nephin at the weekend on what they think about the fence. |
| Warren Swords | Jul 5 2023, 3:20pm | I think you're after revealing your lack of knowledge about mountain running David. Every open mountain race requires a strong knowledge of navigation regardless whether it's the Eiger or not. Every single mountain in Ireland has "unobstructed views" until the cloud comes down. We get it, you are proud of your lovely little track. Stick the Up and Over race on again next year and we'll come down and take the course record off you. https://www.northmayo.ie/nephin-up-and-over-challenge-13th-april-2019/ |
| David Sands | Jul 5 2023, 3:28pm | Lol Warren, I can hold my own. Is there a mandatory kit for the IMRA races, now that's showing my lack of knowledge...compass, space blanket , rocket flair, sherpa?????? Did you race Sunday? |
| David Sands | Jul 5 2023, 3:41pm | I'd love to see some real mountain runners come down for the UP and Over Challenge and take my course record, sure, what do I know about mountain running, I'm only a 3 time Ironman triathlete with a World Championship qualification to my name (did i mention that) My Strava KOM of 35 min high for Nephin is there for the taking too, not too sloppy for someone with very little knowledge of mountain running. |
| Warren Swords | Jul 5 2023, 3:41pm | What happened to the Up and Over Challenge that was run for 3 years between 2017 and 2019? Seems like it'd be easier to get that very successful race going again and show IMRA how it's done. |
| David Sands | Jul 5 2023, 3:48pm | It was on the calendar for 2020 but Covid put a halt to it. There were talks of it happening this year but the original organsers may have lost the appetite, I don't know, I have heard Insurance costs mention. There is a meeting planned to discuss it's future and the viability of running the event. |
| Stuart Scott | Jul 5 2023, 3:50pm | I think it's a lovely fence. I've had no issue crossing it over the years. There are actually two good crossing places that leave you with your bits intact. After that, there's a good bit of route choice that can have a big impact on the outcome. Do you stay high or low going up? When do you start turning on the descent? A marked route has none of that. Both are very different types of races and both have their place in IMRA. Let's leave the traditional route for the Connacht Champs and, as mentioned, try to incorporate the Nephin Trail into next year's NW league (don't forget Lillian's separate forum post). |
| David Sands | Jul 5 2023, 3:52pm | That sounds a perfect compromise Stuart, I've no issues with that at all. |
| Alan Ayling | Jul 5 2023, 4:40pm | Just get over it. The fence I mean. |
| David Dinsmore | Jul 5 2023, 5:07pm | At the risk of attracting more ire - unlike David S I know practically nothing about mountain running- I’d just ask a couple more questions. Firstly, acknowledging that it’s a championship race which epitomises IMRA’s key principles, why only 32 runners? That’s only 10 fewer than Mweelrea so the celebrations didn’t make that much difference. There are over 3000 members yet only a small percentage turned up. Could it be the majority of members aren’t so enamoured of it? Secondly, are IMRA’s insurers aware that runners are forced to climb barbed wire fences? I’d be surprised if they were happy with that. Thirdly, the car park was completely full of race traffic for several hours on Sunday meaning that anyone who wanted to use the trail was inconvenienced. The car park is only there because of the efforts of local people in opening the trail and promoting it. It seems IMRA members are happy to use some modern facilities when it suits-:) |
| David Sands | Jul 5 2023, 5:10pm | Seriously Alan, I have to live in the area. Why not go the full hog and take some bolt cutters for those who follow!!! |
| Eoin Keith | Jul 5 2023, 5:43pm | David and David, What are you two trying to achieve here. It's been well outlined why the route is as it is, and why we like it that way. (And people are free to use your trail in the CC Nephin race if they opt to do so as their route choice) We would very much a appreciate it if your interest in your new path motivates you enough to help with potentially organising a new race in the new North West league next year, and this has been said to you both. So if you're willing to help the option will potentially be there for everyone to race specifically on your new trails next year, presuming that you're willing to help make that happen. So beyond that, what exactly are you hoping to achieve here? And to David Sands, as the old joke goes (which is actually just a statement of reality it would seem)… How do you know if someone has done an Ironman? Don't worry, they'll tell you! |
| Stuart Scott | Jul 5 2023, 5:46pm | David D, that's an interesting point. Maybe we should cancel Nephin entirely, forget the west and revert to yet another race up Lug?!! As has been mentioned ad nauseum, numbers aren't an accurate reflection on quality. There are enough races on the IMRA calendar to cater for all tastes and abilities. And the new Northwest league has been getting in excess of 100 runners per race which is brilliant to see, and is a reflection of the volunteer efforts of those involved in getting it off the ground. On a separate point, having 3,000 runners or walkers on any route, be it open mountain or trail, could easily lead to erosion issues. These are unfortunately becoming more common now and change the landscape forever. A number of traditional race routes have been lost forever because of this and I'd hate to see Nephin go the same way. |
| Andrew Hanney | Jul 5 2023, 5:53pm | This whole thread reminds me of the Nephin climb. Getting nowhere slowly and hoping it’ll be over soon. |
| Eoin Keith | Jul 5 2023, 6:10pm | Andrew wins the internet today :) Love it! |
| David Dinsmore | Jul 5 2023, 6:16pm | David S and I are taking to people locally with a view to organising a race as part of the league next year |
| Eoin Keith | Jul 5 2023, 6:22pm | That's great to hear David. Is there anything else you're hoping to achieve here? We had already established that as an option many many posts back in this thread. |
| David Sands | Jul 5 2023, 9:45pm | Nice one Eoin, it appears that you didn't read all the many many posts back in this thread. I was actually joking, I'll hold up a big banner with joke on it next time especially for you. Now, I think we're done here. |
| Tim Grummell | Jul 5 2023, 10:20pm | Replying to Paul Flynn about the lack of 18 to 35 numbers, from being involved with afew local clubs myself a good few years now, the only way you get reasonable numbers here is if you successfully progress them through from juvenile age groups. Younger adults tend to stick with the sport they were mostly involved with during their teenage years. From athletics clubs point of view, mountain running is still too often seen as lesser than track or xc, thankfully that ridiculous reputation is starting to be shaken, and there are afew clubs who take it fairly seriously and always have their best juveniles taking part in trail races for international spots. Still loads of room to develop the junior mountain running, both within IMRA and within athletics clubs who are interested. A good starting point would be creating a national juvenile mountain running championship within IMRA, as part of some of the existing international trail races. |
| Conor Murphy | Jul 5 2023, 10:40pm | David - re "taking this forward". I organise the Munster Trail Runners, I recently posted about IMRA's abysmal record in Galway, Mayo and Donegal. To his credit a committee member assured us that there would be more races there next year. Robust debate can have positive outcomes! Brendan - I'm not proposing changes to the Constitution. I am pointing to it and noting that there is a positive obligation to promote the sport, no PRO and deferring to commercial events seems inconsistent with this. Warren - I am in 3 other running organisations. Athletics Ireland with all their clubs, coaches and competitions. Parkrun organising c 6,000 runs/races annually in 105 locations across the country for its 250,000 runners. And Sanctuary Runners with a very high profile media presence and a long list of corporate, charitable amd Government "associates". I would say all 3 have a much better idea their aims and how to promote them. Deirdre - not sure if the volunteering comment is directed at me, but I have volunteered, RDed, and I organise the Facebook group referred to above with 2,500 members which has weekly meet ups, weekend outings, summer and Christmas parties, intro to trail running nights, the Iveragh Traverse etc. None of that is "I've done an Ironman" chest beating! But using social media to recruit, to organise, to develop a sport beyond just races...it's not rocket science and it's not costly. Stuart and Andrew - I fully agree with limits on numbers in races. But of course in the UK we see both much bigger numbers in the sport with sensible limits on numbers in races. |
| David Power | Jul 6 2023, 12:17pm | This thread is battling with the RTE saga for endurance in the headlines, intrigue and plot twists. Could I make a suggestion, taken from our GAA brethren? Taking a leaf out of the Galway hurlers books, maybe the IMRA Ard Chomhairle could invite Nephin to join the Leinster League 2024, just as Galway play in the Leinster Senior Hurling Championship? Think about it, all the regular LL participants chasing points in the league would be encouraged to make the trip west to Mayo (as the mountain isn't going to relocate down to Wicklow for the summer)? Plus we might recruit a few Mayo mountain runners who could discover the 160+ races on offer amongst the 12 of the LL? It might also break the curse of 51. All appeals over route choice, in true GAA style, could go up through the newly formed CCCC and beyond that to the DRA. The winner would take the specially commissioned NEPHINGATE perpetual trophy. Yours sincerely, |
| Alan Ayling | Jul 6 2023, 1:20pm | Nephingate you say? Therein lieth the problem - there is no gate. Just a fence. And another thing. If we're going to follow GAA influence, that short head finish between Andy & Brian would have been declared a draw and required a rematch. |
| Niall Corrigan | Jul 6 2023, 1:53pm | #nephinornowhere |
| Turlough Conway | Jul 18 2023, 11:47am | Hi all Good news is that David Sands and I have been chatting behind the scenes and sizing up the possibility of adding Nephin to the NW league. More to follow there. Myself and David had investigated setting up more IMRA races in Connaught way back in the noughties when the Connaught Championship was based in Delphi and David in particular had put a good bit of work into it. As regards Nephin, with the possible exception of the Syrons I would be confident in an honest educated guess that he was ran up and down that mountain as much or more than anyone else. So his 'creds' are there but to be honest (and I know this as well as anyone) lots gets lost in translation online and we should be careful that the Davids, Conor or anyone else don't feel they need to don the proverbial Ned Kelly outfits when expressing opinions relevant to topic on this forum. One thing that strikes me about the numbers for Nephin compared to similar in other provences is the proportion of people from the provence competing. It was around 25% whereas in Munster for example its at least the inverse of that. That's no-ones fault but it does highlight that race awareness promotion etc may need to be different in areas where IMRA race presence is being developed Vs in areas where their existence and experience of them are very much common knowledge amongst the running community. The NW league will help with this but there is obviously a huge opportunity for another league based around the Galway/South Mayo area. Our trajectory in the NW was just to organize a standalone race in year one, then a 5 race league in year two. We got amazing support from the committee: in fact it was easy for us once we decided to do it. Can a couple of people (from Galway area say) organize one race there in one year? If so you are likely to have a league there in two. If its a runner the NW league can assist so no reinventing of wheels needed. |
| Brendan Lawlor | Jul 18 2023, 12:54pm | Good man Turlough.. you're some diplomat.. a career in the UN awaits ! |
