Irish Mountain
Running Association

Irish University Championship

Forum Messages

AuthorDateMessage
Jonathan McCloyJan 7 2010, 4:34pmI am migrating this discussion on the University Championships so that the Tibradden forum may be used for the Tibradden Race. Below is what has been discussed so far.
Jonathan McCloyJan 7 2010, 4:37pm=====================================
Jonathan McCloy Yesterday, 4:11 pm Hi, Firstly I would just like to get some feedback on why my offer to organise the Irish Universities Mountain Running Championships was ignored by IMRA.

I emailed IMRA several months ago with an offer to host the event in the Mournes or in the Cooley Mountains (this was several months ago, specific location not entirely important).

I emailed IMRA two weeks ago requesting feedback and have had no response.

With the scheduled event drawing nearer yet again I am compelled to ask publicaly for peoples opinions. Specifically I would ask for opinions from mountain running students as that is who this is organised for. For clarity, I am a student at Queen's University Belfast.

More recently I have considered the Saturday 27th March and a more precise location for the event and I believe that the Bearnagh course provides an adequate location where the same marshals may be used for up to four different courses all incorporating the ascent of a mountain and a mixture of terrain. Due to numbers I believe the following would be most adequate.

A Route
Start - Meelbeg - Bearnagh - Meelmore - Finish

B Route
Start - Meelbeg - Meelmore - Finish

I know there will be many arguements saying that there are not enough people to allow for two sperate races, however, we do not know until we try and maybe the advertisement of an easier section for fresher mountain runners may just entice some closet mountain running students into the hills.


Regards,

Jonathan McCloy

=====================================

Mick Hanney Yesterday, 5:59 pm I'm on the committee and winter league race director and I don't recall receiving such an email. I put a request out a few weeks back looking for race directors for the winter league races and I got volunteer requests in double quick time and one of them was tasked with the Uni race. The volunteer race director's have a track record of organising imra events. The Crone race last year was very well received. It was a good challenge. I know, cos I suffered around it. I'm confident that we'll come up with a challenging route this year for the race too, whether its Tibradden or Crone.

Thanks for your suggestion. The best way to get your foot in the door in terms of organising a race is to assist at other imra events, shadow a race director at an event and take it from there.
Colm Hill Yesterday, 6:08 pm I feel as if i have to jump in to defend McCloy here.

He's based in Belfast and runs alot of the NIMRA races. I wouldn't say its practial for him to help out in a race around Dublin.
I think that the reason for a different location would be because Queens always have to travel as do UCC and GMIT etc...

The student champs in the mournes would be a nice change. I'd say run em up Donard or the Powerscourt Ridge route but i know alot of converted road runners would strongly disagree with me :)
Gerry Brady Yesterday, 7:07 pm Jonathan

I have copied below our forum exchanges from February 2009. You have broadly raised the same issues again. Were any representations made by college mountain runners to the IUAA to take on a colleges mountain race? If you did raise it with them, what feedback did you get? As mentioned to you last February, I would love to see IUAA take it on so hopefully you have been making approaches to them.

What address did you send your recent emails to?

IMRA insurance may not cover events outside of the 26 counties.

====================

Jonathan McCloy Feb 11 2009, 1:15PM As I had suggested in the non-replied emails to IMRA (NIMRA were also CC'd), why not have two courses like any other Intervarsity Competition? Fresher Course and Open Course.

Good to see that the course has been adjusted!


gerry brady Feb 11 2009, 11:57PM Jonathan apologies for not replying to you last August 2008, I was abroad on holidays and organised the Galtees race immediately I got back.

Your proposal was to host the race in the Mournes. I think the best future for this race is for the Irish universities to integrate it into their athletics programme as an IUAA race rather than for IMRA or NIMRA to organise it (my personal opinion). On numbers in 2008, there were 22 college runners last year and two mens and two womens teams so numbers would need to increase to have two races.


Jonathan McCloy Feb 16 2009, 6:37PM I have made it plain as day that I would be keen to make it UIAA or at least in the CUSAI calender, though never fear, Ultimate Frisbee and its many variations are!

You never know untill you try! I'm trying to get people to head down to the climbing intervarsities this weekend, main problem is that alot of our guys are like 'aw sure I'm not gonna win anyway', but when I explain the Fresher class, they are coming!

=====================================

Stuart Scott Yesterday, 10:52 pm Could NIMRA host the event instead? That would solve any potential insurance issues. If inexperience is a problem, I'm sure there are plenty of senior people both sides of the border willing to oversee the race organisation.

I still don't see what IUAA has to do with it. Do they have any input into the Regional and National Champs, European Champs Trial etc.?

It's probably too late to change now the date and location has been set. Instead, can we use this time to agree where to hold it next year so this doesn't arise again? By all accounts, last year's route was very well received (http://imra.ie/forum/topic/id/1480/) but it'd be nice to see the event based outside Dublin some year.

=====================================

Jonathan McCloy Today, 11:25 am Before the bumpf, Thanks for the feedback guys, it's what I expected and so replies are below.


In the meantime I think it would be a good idea for students to let us know whether they would prefer a race in the Mournes or in Dublin.



Mick,

You would be right, I did not email you. I initially emailed Gerry as the previous organiser and more recently I have been including both an extra IMRA committee member and a NIMRA member to help ensure that it was responded. Sadly this year it was only responded by NIMRA who said that it was a good idea. Before christmas I emailed the president of IMRA for feedback and recieved none.

Regards IMRA race organisation, I would not get these requests as I am from the north and a member of NIMRA.

Regards track record, purely for race organisation I have organised a race on Slieve Gallion for 7 years, one of which included the British and Irish Junior Mountain Running Championships. Further to this I have extensive experience organising outdoor activities as President of both the Queen's University of Belfast Mountaineering Club and Orienteering club. I have been involved in the organisation of two Irish University Championships as part of which we held two day events and organised nights out (these tend to attract more students!).

I hope that addresses your concerns.



Colm,

Cheers.



Gerry,

You seem to be fixed on making this race IUAA's baby. Although Desireable, this is not neccesary for it to become a race organised by students. However I do happen to be in touch with QUB Athletics and their senior members who are involved in IUAA and their feedback was that it was not going to happen.

As I had suggested before, as CUSAI are in fact the governing body for student sport, we should get the race recognised by them. If there was ever an International Student Mountain Running Championship race, the team would be selected by them, not IUAA.

Regards insurance, this race would of course be held under a permit from NIMRA, hence it is insured and only requires a £1 surcharge instead of IMRA membership, which again is more student friendly. IMRA are in fact running the Slieve Donard race as part of the All-Ireland Championship this year, which will no doubt be under a NIMRA permit.



Stuart,

Insurance should be covered above, as should be experience. And IUAA are like IOSA in their role (only more active!).

Regards changing date, I think if a decision is made by the end of the month it is adequate. I am yet to recieve any notification through the University of this race occurring, that is, neither of Orienteering or Mountaineering clubs have been informed and I would doubt any of the rest either. Which means at best I would be able to provide two months notice to University runners, currently more than what has been provided.

This is my final year in University, so my offer my not be extended next year as I do not know where I will be, but hopefully, like any other Intervarsity, some-one usually offers to host the next years event at this years.



Hope that addresses most concerns, if there are any more feel free to ask.

=====================================

Dermot Murphy Today, 12:41 pm Jonathon, as IMRA president, I did not receive any correspondence from you before christmas. Or would you have sent it before November?
I am sorry your enquiry was not responded to.

=====================================

Jonathan McCloy Today, 1:34 pm Dermot,

If it was a computer error then you cannot be blamed and apologies. I have the email in my sent box, here is a copy;

Irish Univerisites Mountain Running Championships
Jonathan McCloy
Sent: 22 December 2009 16:40
To: dermot.murphy@imra.ie

Mr Murphy,

I am writing to enquire why I have not received any feedback from IMRA regarding my offer to host this years Irish Universities Mountain Running Championships. I gave more than adequate notice of my offer and now I see that a date has been set in the 2010 IMRA calendar.

I would appreciate feedback as soon as possible. I will be contacting CUSAI in the near future to enquire about making this a recognised event.


Regards,

Jonathan McCloy
Gerry BradyJan 7 2010, 11:04pmThe main issue for me is how to get more colleges involved, and how to get the event onto a sustainable administrative structure so that it will be held annually into the future.

CUSAI is an administrative body, it does not organise races. Mountain running is officially part of athletics hence the mention of the IUAA, the Irish Universities Athletics Association. My understanding is that the IUAA manage the holding of colleges road, cross-country etc. events and delegate the actual organisation to a college athletics club, and responsibility rotates around Provinces or Colleges?

IMRA have been holding a colleges championship since 1999, see previous results http://www.imra.ie/ad-hoc/Colleges_Results_1999.doc

So what is possible? IUAA college clubs are the best placed to take it on. Could mountain running clubs be formed in each college and then approach CUSAI to recognise them and the event? However this does not seem a practical approach for a once a year event involving small numbers. While the IMRA event has lacked real involvement by colleges, IMRA has kept the event going. Your proposals are essentially for a fairly informal approach “hopefully, like any other Intervarsity, some-one usually offers to host the next years event at this years”. I don’t think that is sufficiently sustainable.

It would be unwise for IMRA to nominate it as one of their events for insurance purposes without taking a hands-on approach as at present to ensure that all the usual safety procedures were in place.

I checked my emails and the last email I have from you Jonathan is August 2008. I do not remember receiving any in 2009 and deleting them.
Jonathan McCloyJan 8 2010, 11:56amGerry,

How to get more colleges involved?

Can I suggest that holding this event on forest tracks just outside Dublin every year is not a way to increase participation. Yes, if you're talking about flat runners who use this as a training ground, but certainly not for any mountain runners not from Dublin.

Would it not be fair to say that allowing the colleges to organise this championship would be a good way of increasing colleges participation?

Sustainable Administrative Structure?

This is one race per year, it hardly requires big organisation.

Your fixation on the IUAA, in my opinion, is not the right way forward at present times. There are currently not enough mountain runners involved in the IUAA to properly represent mountain runners. I would fear that an IUAA idea of a mountain race would be very different than that of a mountain runner.

Your understanding of CUSAI is correct so far as being administrators, I never claimed that they would take over organisation of the race, only that it become recognised by the official Universities sporting body. It is not neccesary that individual clubs be set up in order to make this a recognised event. At any rate, there is already a mountain running club in an Irish University and it is likely that there will be another at the end of this year.

And yes, the informal approach does work, it is very common. The reason why it works so well is because every year you tend to get some-one like myself who is keen to put on a good race and have a bit of craic with other universities.


Regards IMRA nominating this event, I thought it was only courtesy and manners that I ask for acknowledgement from IMRA rather than effectively taking the event from IMRA. I asked for permission from NIMRA and IMRA, that means effectively that the permit could be from either side of the border. And again, can I remind you that IMRA have nominated the Slieve Donard & Commedagh race as an IMRA Championship race this year.


Regards emails, can I suggest that the IMRA webmaster has a look at the email system as it clearly does not seem to be working. Below is a copy of the email which was sent to IMRA and NIMRA and to which NIMRA replied.


============
From: Jonathan McCloy [jmccloy04@qub.ac.uk]
To: gerry.brady@imra.ie; paul.kelly@imra.ie; ir.taylor@ntlworld.com
Sent: Tue 22/09/2009 17:04
Subject: Irish Universities Mountain Running Championships


Hello all,

Here's my offer to host the Irish Universities Mountain Running Championships.

The venue would be the Mourne Mountains. Currently thinking of the Bearnagh course and a secondary course would be available for "fresher" runners (Meelbeg and Meelmore only).

If I am permitted to organise this event I may be able to apply for a grant from Queens to help subsidise the attendees.


Regards,

Jonathan McCloy
Paul KellyJan 8 2010, 12:37pmHi Jonathan,

Can confirm that I didn't receie the e-mail either, checked archive and nothing recieved from yourself. Would have been of special interest to me with Queens being my alma mater!

Thanks,
Paul
Jonathan McCloyJan 8 2010, 12:53pmWell in that case I think it might be safe to say the problem lies with the IMRA email system and that puts the issue of communication to bed.

So lets get to what is in hand... an Irish Universities Mountain Running Championship. I am obviously keen to hold this year on a course which is acceptable to most as a senior championship race. Is it agreeable that Tibradden is dropped as Universities Championship and as a trial I organise a more conventional styled Intervarsity in the Mournes?

Issues of notification are no problem.
Brendan O'ConnorJan 8 2010, 1:53pmJonathan, did you consider picking up the telephone at any stage?

It's probably a somewhat old fashioned media, but can be quite effective in resolving the issues you cite. If your intent is to reach a resolution, than I'd suggest you get in touch with Gerry by phone.

However, if your intent is to have a controversial discussion in public, and antagonise people along the way, then you would seem to be succeeding very well,

All the best,
Brendan
Paul Morrissey2Jan 8 2010, 2:32pmI think you're blowing this out of proportion Jonathan. The University race is very small in terms of students. Students aren't a massive part of IMRA for better or worse so it makes sense to tag it on as part of an existing race. The fact that the committee still make the effort despite the small involvement is pretty impressive from my point of view.

If you want to run an intervarsity race/league, I don't think the existence of this race with around 20 participating students would hurt it. Talk to the colleges directly and sort it out. I'm a climber and the intervarsities have nothing to do with Mountaineering Ireland or their official competitions.
Edward NilandJan 8 2010, 3:11pmHi Gerry/Jonathon,

The IMRA Universities race is an IMRA initative to have some (unofficial) interaction between student Athletic clubs and us. As far as i remember it has never been an official Student championship recognised outside of IMRA (IUAA or CUSAI). IMRA have never approached CUSAI (as far as i know) to be recognised as the NGB for Student Hill/Mtn running either, therefore it remains within the remit of the IUAA.
If you want to run a Universities race go and do it, but get agreement (And Insurance) from the IUAA to do so, just like every other student athletics race. When you have, then i'm sure IMRA will facilitate you in publicising your indepentent Uni's race, until then, as an interested individual, you do not have the right to demand anything from IMRA.

The one thing that you are doing is killing the goodwill of Volunteers who organise a race for students off their own bat year in year out. Like you said you will be gone in a year, so dont ruin it with your size 12's for others comming along behind. If it wasnt for IMRA (and Joe) there would never had been a Uni Champs.

As for getting more clubs involved?
Provincial races (with less travel) would be a start.
How about a Ulster/NI Universities champs in the Mournes?

Wash you linen somewhere else please.

Jonathan McCloyJan 8 2010, 3:12pmBrendan,

No, I live in the North of Ireland and I am a student.

Emails have reached Gerry in the past, to the exact same email address, to which he never gave a response. It would seem strange that the exact same email address should not work a second time and that another recipient should get the email no problem. However, going by Pauls response, IMRA emails do not seem to be working properly and I am willing to leave that there.

So as I said, putting matter of communication aside lets organise a mountain race. I am very keen to organise this race in the Mournes, which leaves quite a simple decision to be made, preferably between those who it effects.
Colm HillJan 8 2010, 3:16pmI have tried and failed on two occasions to set up mountain running (and orienteering club) in my college. Not gonna happen.

It is easier to tag onto the athletic club and coax people into running a hill race for a laugh and hope they get addicted. The road, track and XC aspect is always going to be more popular as for some reason runners think that by racing on trails they may sprain an ankle or aquire some other injury...

In terms of a new route, I would completely support a more "off trails" hill race. But then again I am probably biased due to my backround.

No matter what the course, the numbers will be small anyways.
Niamh O CeallaighJan 8 2010, 3:24pmJonathon,

Firstly, thank you for your enthusiasm in this matter. The committee would like to apologise for not responding to your previous correspondance. There seem to have been some technical issues. We will email you now to discuss your proposals directly.

Kind Regards,
Niamh O Ceallaigh

Race Coordinator
IMRA
Eoin KeithJan 8 2010, 3:47pmEverything in this post is a personal, as opposed to official, response.

Firstly, I think it's entirely valid for Jonathan to raise his points on this forum, and from what I can see he is being entirely constructive. I wouldn't want to discourage him, or anyone else, from bringing any hillrunning subject they want for discussion on this forum, especially if it coming up with constructive suggestions on improvements.

Secondly, and for reference to Jonathan especially... The Tibradden race is more than just a trail run. I dislike the Crone course for the same reasons you do, but the Tribradden course is nothing like it. It's one of the more technical runs in Leinster, with very long sections over rough rocky ground (whilst still being a very obvious path).
Jimmy SynnottJan 8 2010, 6:08pmGreat points Eoin
Jimmy SynnottJan 8 2010, 6:08pmGreat points Eoin
Jimmy SynnottJan 8 2010, 6:08pmGreat points Eoin
Mountain Running BoyJan 8 2010, 8:42pmA few points i'd like to raise...

a) How many other intervarsities aren't organised by student clubs? (My understanding is that nearly all are organised and ran by students.)

b) How can IMRA talk about affiliation to whateverwhoevernoone. The intervarsities are between universities. They would actually be insured under university sport insurance!! It's insulting for people to say a race held North of the border couldn't be insured. Aren't people aware that NIMRA exists? And insurance for that matter?

c) I think Jonathan has been disgracefully treated. I recall he had previously offered to host it when infact he turned up at the Intervarsities a few years ago when Queen's won the mens race. My understanding is that Queens haven't returned to the "mountain running intervarsities" as their runners consider it nothing more than a joke, a trail race at best. Thats why I never even consider racing it.

d) If people are so keen to have a big turn out of road runners whats the point? Road runners have their intervarsities. Why adopt and change the sport to satisfy people who don't even care about the sport? We dont shorten a marathon to make it spectator friendly. Nor do they cancel stages of the tour de france when it rains or there is fog incase the cyclists get a cold, the tv cameras can't see the chasing pack, or because not enough people can take part. No the tour is seen as a test, a race, a challenege. Who cares about the winner of cycling medals at the olympics, no the media attention is on the tour, the real genuine sport. So I'll say it again, why change the sport for people who aren't part of it and never will be?

e) I don't see how peoples certain opinions should dictate the way the sport is run. Surely the students as the future should organise their sport and not some old done has been?

f) It feels that our Northern colleagues are being disowned just as they were following partition. This is one island the last time I checked on google earth...
Gerry BradyJan 8 2010, 10:02pmQuote from Jonathan McCloy: “Emails have reached Gerry in the past, to the exact same email address, to which he never gave a response.”

Forum posting by me in February 2009: “gerry brady Feb 11 2009, 11:57PM Jonathan apologies for not replying to you last August 2008, I was abroad on holidays and organised the Galtees race immediately I got back.”

-> Are you saying my forum response from last February is insufficient - that you require a direct email response to you, or are you saying there were also other emails?


Forum posting by Niamh O’Ceallaigh: “The committee would like to apologise for not responding to your previous correspondance.”
-> exclude me from that apology, I am not going to apologise for not receiving an email from you….or to use your tone and language, an email you say you sent to me.

In summary Jonathan: do not email me again so that we will not have a repeat of your accusations.
Douglas BarryJan 9 2010, 12:29amSomeone dived into a phone booth and emerged as Mountain Running Boy....

Well Mr Incognito, would you like to come out of the closet? Surely you're not afraid to post your opinions under your own name? It seems utterly pointless to allow posts on the forum from people who don't have the courage of their convictions.

The IUMRC was started in 1999 with some help from Bray Runners' Cyril Smith (Trinity) the then current IUAA Chairman. It was intended to follow on from the Irish Schools which was started in '98. It was always playing to a limited market but we hoped it might grow and help boost future Irish international teams.

I see 131 people took part in the IUAA cross country in '09 while 13 did the '09 mountain race, so one might say there is scope for development. Whether moving it to the North would help I don't know, but everything should be tried sometime. The problem is motivating University runners to turn out at all. With the majority of them studying in the Dublin area perhaps it might be better to keep it close to that location this year, postpone the race until after their cc champs in Cork on the 13/3, and really focus on promoting our event at their blue riband event. Maybe the numbers might pick up then?

http://www.iol.ie/~imra/rpt_99DjouceInt.html is the link to the results of the 1999 IUMRC

Douglas
Paul MorrisseyJan 9 2010, 2:38amAgain "mountainrunningboy", what is the big issue here. IMRA are offering a race... not claiming it to be the official intervarsities (someone wants to run that they should get their finger out). Fair play to them for that. They could just as easily run the race with the university part taken out and avoid all this hassle. As you say, colleges run the intervarsities. So contact the Uni's and sort it out.... then you've got the IVs and you can take or leave this race as well.
Jonathan McCloyJan 10 2010, 6:51pmGerry,

You have taken a quote from a paragraph and placed it completely out of context. It was explaining the facts of the breakdown in communication, how this discussion has reached this forum and my acceptance that there may be a problem with the email system and not individuals.

However to answer your question, yes, I believe by anyone’s standards, a response six months later not answering my request is insufficient. I had the courtesy to provide you, as the previous race organiser with a written request to organise the Irish Universities Mountain Running Championships and for a second year, I have not received a straight answer and instead have had yet another attempt to be sidelined into a discussion on the IUAA.

If you choose to separate yourself from the rest of the IMRA committee that is your choice.


Paul, Edward,

I think you are missing the point of having one deciding championship race.


Douglas,

You have hit a nail on the head and it is exactly why I proposed the 27th March, some advertisement would be great.


Mountain Running Boy,

You sound like my more frustrated side!
NIamh O CeallaighJan 15 2010, 2:22pmThe matter of the Irish University Championships was discussed among the IMRA committee at a meeting last night. We are currently finalising details along with Jonathon. Further details will follow shortly.

Kind Regards,
Niamh O Ceallaigh
Race Co-ordinator
Tim GrummellJan 26 2010, 12:01amAny update on this? Has the Intervasity moved to Camaderry on the 20th March?
Kevin O'RiordanJan 26 2010, 12:06amYup
Niamh O CeallaighFeb 1 2010, 3:29pmThe Irish University Championships will this year be based out of Glendalough (route to be confirmed, but Camaderry likely), Co. Wicklow on Saturday March 20th. Jonathon Mc Cloy is kindly providing assistance on route choice, distances and other organisational matters.

The race will be a standalone race for university students only. There will be two courses, one for experienced runners and one for novices. The novice race will be suitable for all standards, including absolute beginners (you can walk up if you have to!).

Preliminary details are now available on the event page. Final details will be available on Monday 8th February.

It is the intention of IMRA that the University Championships/Intervarsities will eventually be an event run by the students themselves. In order to develop a sustainable model for this, we are working with the students this year with a view to passing all responsibility over in the next couple of years.

Niamh O Ceallaigh
Race Co-ordinator
Imra
niamh.oceallaigh@imra.ie
Peter O'FarrellFeb 2 2010, 5:22pmha! I see around your sneaky restrictions. I'm a part time student. Can I play too?
Niamh O CeallaighFeb 2 2010, 5:26pmPeter,

Gerry Brady will need to confirm, but as I understand it, all students registered in the current year on a college/university course are eligible to run. So, that will include you.

Niamh
diarmuid O'ColmainFeb 2 2010, 9:54pmBut Peter, you will have to wear short pants.