Is it time to scrap Howth from LL?
| Author | Date | Message |
|---|---|---|
| Warren Swords | Apr 13 2023, 11:32am | Personally I think we should. It's almost impossible to get around the course without going wrong. I think IMRA has outgrown the course. Racing Howth twice in the one year at the expense of alternatives such as Ballinastoe, Kippure and Seefingan to name a few seems like a poor offering? It's always been a good race to ease people into the League but it's the 7th race this year. We should be in the mountains at that stage. I realise it's a great option for those living on the Northside but I think it's time to shelve it or at least just race it once a year. |
| Andrew Hanney | Apr 13 2023, 8:42pm | Totally agree. Bring back Tibradden. |
| Mikey Fry | Apr 13 2023, 9:08pm | Big time warren a mountain would be much better so many options let’s do it??? |
| Alan Ayling | Apr 14 2023, 10:05am | Ah, Tibradden. The Paschendale race. Bodies and blood everywhere.... Not necessarily as straightforward as you might think putting on races with LL numbers in the mountains. Mainly around permits, also parking. Howth can be done right, but (like many races) relies on marking and marshaling to be spot on, marshals in exactly right place, on time and knowing what they're doing. Get that right = good race, get it wrong = shambles. An aspect of race directing easily underestimated. Committee will discuss. |
| Joseph Boyle | Apr 14 2023, 4:29pm | Warren, I feel I have to reply to your post and this is something I don’t normally do as I don’t think this is the way the forum should be used. As far as I’m aware the process of deciding races is carried out by the Committee each year and if you wish to propose a new race you should send your proposal to the Races Co-ordinator (Lillian). There’s more to setting up a race than just deciding you have a route, there are various stakeholders involved including Coillte, Parks and Recreation and Landowners to name a few as well as facilities for parking. By making a comment on the forum it would appear to me that you are saying the Committee don’t know what they’re doing. How come Niamh and Paul in the SE, Gaelan in the Midlands, Robbie, Tom, Tricia and the team in Munster, Angela in Kilmacanaque as well as Turlough in the NW can organise multiple new races for the season without having to make a deal of it on the forum and discuss cancelling other races. Another point of note is that you mention getting lost in Howth, I’ve checked all the races back to COVID and I didn’t see your name on any of the results sheets, possibly you got lost getting to Howth in the first place. One thing that’s come from this is that you’ve probably confirmed both Howth races for the next few years as the Committee can’t be seen to remove one of them or every time someone wants a race removed they’ll just have to start a forum campaign. Another advantage to having the races in Howth is that you can use public transport to attend it and there is also sufficient parking, parking is the reason why most of the Dublin races have disappeared. I will confirm that I may not have replied to this post if had been about anywhere other than Howth as I’ve been involved with the organising over the last few years as well as it being the first race that I ever competed it. |
| Paul Smyth | Apr 14 2023, 4:56pm | I have to disagree with one of Joe's points. I think the implication that there are certain topics that are off-limits on the forum will have a chilling effect that isn't healthy for any organisation. If people have a view point that is relevant to our sport, is not derogatory, and is delivered in a reasonable manner, then they should be allowed to do so. In my opinion that includes discussion of fixtures. |
| Val Jones | Apr 14 2023, 5:28pm | I agree with Paul that any imra related topic can be discussed on the forum provided the etiquette rules are observed. I agree with Joe that howth should be retained as the only north side hill, and it is a great setting. I have marked and marshalled it in the past. And it means there's one evening race that I don't have to battle the M50 to get to. |
| Warren Swords | Apr 14 2023, 5:30pm | Hi Joseph, I'm sure the Committee have taken my post in the right manner, it's just a question. I don't think the committee are going to confirm both races in Howth next year for fear of looking like they kowtowed to a single post on IMRA. The reason you don't see my name (and others) post covid at Howth is because I avoid it for the reasons I stated above. I've raced it five times, most recently in 2017. It's not a personal criticism. There's been problems with Howth for years that predate you race directing. It's always been a mystery tour. I never suggested cancelling it, it just seems excessive to use Howth twice in the same year given the well known issues with the race. |
| Kevin O'Riordan | Apr 14 2023, 6:44pm | I think it's a good idea to keep it. Southsiders are totally spoilt for races, North siders only have Howth really. And getting lost on race routes is pretty much IMRA tradition at this stage :-) |
| Phil behan | Apr 15 2023, 7:44am | As RD of last year’s summer race and potentially this years of it’s not culled, I feel I have to add something. Firstly on Joe’s behalf. Having deputised for him on several Howth races, I can confirm it’s a very tricky race to RD with loads of added complications. I can also confirm Joe running up the hill on my first RD race to fill a critical Marshall spot that we got let down on moments before the start ! Joe has done a really great job with a very tricky race and I think that should be acknowledged. A major factor with Howth is that we cannot cross Howth golf course. This means double backing along the way to get both the distance in, and make it an exciting route. That requires loads of marking tape and extra Marshalls which can be tricky given it’s a volunteer led race on a Wed evening with Dublin traffic. Sure, you could have a race where you follow a single route the whole way around with no double backing, but it may end up being a whole lot shorter and quite sterile. Another issue with Howth is that’s it’s quite common for people to demark the course for us before the race. A memorable one was when someone dumped a load of the marker flags in a bush moments before the gun time. There are a huge amount of twists and turns in Howth, but many have commented to me that that’s what makes it exciting. I understand that no one wants to get lost especially on a competitive LL race, so perhaps it could be moved into a non league race ? I personally think that the Howth race also brings lots of runners from different Dublin based clubs together in their own backyard. There is always a lovely atmosphere post finish and I try to encourage junior runners to attend from clubs who would find Wicklow races logistically very difficult to bring underage juniors out too. If anyone wants to give it a shot at RD I will gladly hand it over. Let’s keep Joe for the winter route though as losing those IMRA branded buns that his wife knocks would be a travesty. Thanks all. Phil |
| Robert Costello | Apr 15 2023, 4:42pm | I wonder if it’s worth getting feedback from the membership on each LL race? You could easily set up a Google form with 3-4 questions (examples below) and ask them to be filled out post each race. Then take that feedback to the committee when formulating the 2024 calendar. Obviously other factors like permits, new races etc. would also be considered. Example questions: How satisfied were you with the overall race? (scale of 1-5) How challenging did you find the course? (scale of 1-5) Would you like to see this on the 2024 calendar? (Yes/No) Is there anything you would like to see improved for future races? |
| Paul Smyth | Apr 15 2023, 4:56pm | I think that would be adding a lot of unnecessary work for relatively little benefit. |
| Robert Costello | Apr 15 2023, 5:27pm | Hmm, feedback is often very beneficial for most things, particularly a voluntary organisation with so many members, so difficult to understand your point there Paul. |
| Paul Smyth | Apr 15 2023, 6:28pm | We have the forum and direct email contact with the committee for providing feedback. Adding a third system seems to me to be fixing a problem we don't really have. I believe most people are happy with most races anyway, and I doubt they will want to fill in a google form for each race they do. I'm not objecting to the idea (provided it's optional) - I just feel that it's unnecessary and adds extra work, and that any benefit will be quite limited. I do have a problem with the questions asking people to rate races. That I feel is a bad idea, and to be honest is not justified in a volunteer based sport like ours. The issues raised had nothing to do with such ranking but rather concerns like the same race being run twice in one year, difficulties with race marking, and the fact that is isn't a mountain race per se, but more of a trail race. |
| Robert Costello | Apr 15 2023, 7:37pm | It’s just a suggestion Paul. This forum is not used by the majority of IMRA members and can often get unnecessarily heated. I get you point on ratings but again it’s a suggestion. The committee get feedback from time to time but, based on my experience, it can be sporadic and again from certain people. You have a view of 1 here as do I but I’m talking about getting a broader view to understand where improvements can be made. |
| Eoin Keith | Apr 15 2023, 8:04pm | Webmaster here.... Please feel free to use the forum for discussing any and all IMRA matters. It's one of our official channels of communication. I've yet to have a problem with any posts on the forum this year. Everyone's posting etiquette has been good (which would be the most likely cause of any issues) Alan, I thought Tibradden was Stalingrad rather than Paschendale. I think the was the bould Brendan Lawlor's nickname for it! |
| Jeff Swords | Apr 15 2023, 9:46pm | Rob's suggestion is a survey on a races and routes, not a critical review of RDs and volunteers. Similarity you can't claim a belief that most people are happy with most races without such a survey, there's a bit of mutual exclusivity there. |
| Paul Smyth | Apr 15 2023, 10:22pm | Call it an educated hunch based on semi-empirical data. |
| Brendan Lawlor | Apr 17 2023, 10:37am | I was talking to the Race Director of the Great Ireland Run about this controversial topic last Sunday. 'Its a tricky one' he mused as 2000 runners approached his finish line from the wrong direction. 'On the one hand I agree with Warren that racing Howth twice in a year might be too much, but Jody made some fine counter arguments defending the race and the good job being done by various race directors. ' As the announcer announced the cancellation of the Athletics Ireland 10k Road Championships he quietly continued ' You know we don't get too many races over on the Northside and Northsiders like early starters are people too , so thats another important factor. But I suppose Ardgillan and the Turlough's Cooley races counters that argument a bit. Jody, Phil and Warren are all sound IMRA heads so its a real shame they've had this little spat but I'd say it will all blow over, just like the Omnishambles I am facing here.' He then walked through the throng of furious club road runners to present the race prizes. I had to admire his sang froid and calm under pressure. ' I'll stick your name in for the raffle' he finally roared over the every growing howls of abuse ' sure Mugs isn't here and I'll give you his ticket'... oh how we laughed.... |
| Joe Lalor | Apr 17 2023, 12:40pm | Brendan, I told you... you should have been in Aughavannagh. |
| Niamh O'Ceallaigh | Apr 17 2023, 1:47pm | LOL Brendan. You're hilarious. Can we organise an emoji option on this forum please. |
| Angela Flynn | Apr 17 2023, 2:46pm | Brilliant Brendan- still laughing -omnishambles -love it, covers a multitude! |
| Jeff Fitzsimons | Apr 17 2023, 6:59pm | It's obvious events in the park are a result of Joe Biden insisting all road markings were changed to miles so as to go easy on the brains of the secret service when they were out jogging with Leo. That was this presidential visit, wasn't it? Back on topic though. Good to see all the discussion on Howth. I can see it from both sides. With an RD hat on it's not always easy to hear less than glowing opinions of a race you're involved in. With the runner hat on though we all want the best possible for our 7 yoyos. And you don't get much for 7 yoyos these days. |
| Joseph Boyle | Apr 18 2023, 11:27am | Apologies to everyone for dragging this one out a bit longer. Reviewing it again I realise that the original post was a question and that my answer to the question is “No”. I would also like to use facts from the IMRA website to back up this answer. Taking information from the LL race in 2022 it shows that out of the 13 races it was the 5th best supported in terms of competitors. This is the only LL race run on the current route, the previous one in 2018 was on an older route. In the 2022 Howth LL event to the best of my knowledge no one got lost, although looking at the excellent report from Graham Aherne I could be wrong, but no one complained at the time to Phil or the team. I’ve listed all the post-race comments on the 2022 race. I think it shows a great level of support for the race and the new route from those who attended. May 25 2022, 11:42pm Well done to all the volunteers, marshalls and organisers for what turned out to be a great race... with all those twists and turns the course marking was flawless, fair play and thanks. May 25 2022, 11:50pm Brilliant event this eve. Great way to experience what the Howth trails have to offer. Thanks so much to the volunteers that put in so much hard work prep’ing and managing the race. It is very appreciated. Brilliant to see lots of kids running too! Drinks and wrapped flapjack bars were v welcome at the end. May 26 2022, 5:25am Huge thanks to the volunteers & organizers. Amazing course, with so much variety & incredible views. Great spread at the finish, the flap jacks were perfect May 26 2022, 7:51am Congrats to Phil and crew on a fantastic race. The course that just keeps on giving. Quite the achievement with such a small crew. With a lot of volunteers double and probably triple jobbing. Ask yourself, "have I volunteered yet?" And get on it! May 26 2022, 8:42am Thanks for organising a great race and well done to the marshalls for managing such an intricate course, which had everything: thorns, nettles, gorse, etc May 26 2022, 12:28pm Put a report up there while its all somewhat still fresh in my mind. Bit verbose but hopefully it makes for a decent walkthrough of the experience. May 26 2022, 3:21pm Great job last night from Phil & his army of marshals in marking out a tricky course and the whole organisation at reg, start and finish. It was a course that had something for everyone with the benign climbing and grassy start, Rhododendron forest trails, steep ups / down and plenty of flat bits not to mention some nice rocks and a section of road! The drinks and Family Behan production of individually wrapped and home baked flapjacks were a fitting treat on a fab night :-) May 27 2022, 8:52am @Jody - Thanks but #837 isn't quite ready for the early start...yet Fabulous course, lovely organisation, super marking and marshalling. Well done Phil and team. Getting an individually wrapped flapjack with a little label saying "You made it!" was the perfect ending. Best Howth race yet! May 27 2022, 12:35pm What a course! So different to any Howth race I have done before. I was delighted to be given one of those tasty bars after the race. I’d love the recipe, if it was going :) May 27 2022, 3:55pm Echoing everyone else's Thanks! Fantastically frantic course.... which had everything. Already working on my ankles for next year! :-) One final note from me is that there has been some mentions of 2 races in Howth, this is also the case for Trooperstown and Brockagh, fair is fair, what’s good for the goose? |
| Miriam Maher | Apr 18 2023, 11:46am | Morning all, Great feedback from everyone on this thread, might have a sneaking personal preference for Brendan Lawlor's unique comments yesterday...you can always rely on Brendan ;-) But, do want to echo Eoin's comment - all feedback is welcome on our forum. That's what it's there for. Committee did discuss Warren's suggestion last night and can confirm that Howth Summer will go ahead this year as planned. All suggestions are always welcome on our race calendar planning - we will keep the feedback in mind when planning for 2024 races. We did agree at the meeting, that as a general point, issues can often arise at all of our races when volunteer numbers are low or limited, raising the possibility of not enough marshals on the course etc. So if we have enough volunteers...those issues become less likely. Hence the need for everyone to factor in planning their volunteering as well as their racing! Thanks, Miriam |
| Warren Swords | Apr 18 2023, 12:09pm | Brockagh and Trooperstown are actual mountains though with significant differences between winter and summer routes. I'm sure some people love running in Howth, I'm just questioning whether it should be in the Leinster League. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Perhaps it's a more fundamental question of looking for more mountain in the Leinster League and making the best of use of summer nights. Thanks Miriam. |
| Stuart Scott | Apr 18 2023, 12:38pm | Before Jody explodes (!), I think there's definitely merit to having a geographical spread of races and Howth can be quite an enjoyable outing. I don't always make it as it's quite a trek for me to get to but the same could be said for those travelling from the northside to Wicklow every week. One of the things I like most about the LL is the mix of races and there really is something to suit everyone. With only 7 races to score, we can pick the races we really want to do and still have contingency left over. I'm happy to keep it. The marking issue is a bit different but getting lost in a hill race is almost a rite of passage. Ballinastoe is a bit too well marked and marshalled now if you ask me...there was a time when I used to rely on the faster runners getting mislaid to bump me up the rankings :-) And re. the forum, I agree with Eoin and Miriam that this is the perfect place for discussions like this. It's the best way to give feedback to the committee which is then taken into account when designing the next year's calendar. |
